New York Airspace

[GaryP1007]

I often fly from Boston to Ocean City MD on my way to Myrtle Beach. 100% of my flights thus far see me being brought down to 4,000 feet (regardless of whether I filed for 6k or 8k) when I go over LI and not allowed to go back to my filed altitude until past ACY.

 

Does anyone know if there is an altitude I can file (i.e. 10,000) that will eliminate this up and down? Next trip is August 2nd and I can file for 10K but I hate the thought of the fuel I waste to go from Boston to Long Island climbing to 10 and then down and then up again.
 

 

[201er]

Doing IFR on similar route they always jerk me around like that too. Say I file 6, they'll take me up to 8, then down to 6, then down to 4, then up to 6. It's pretty ridiculous.

[John Pleisse]

I recall anything east of the city being a function of Kennedy arrivals and departures. They used to take me right over the city above ten thousand. Philly is like this too, they want you at 5 or 6 or way above the Bravo. This is a real problem in the winter with icing. They don't have much flexibility.

[KSMooniac]

After getting a sample of their airspace last week I'm glad I don't live there, or go there regularly!  

[Hank]

Can you deviate around them?

 

This weekend flying past GSO [the big city of Greensboro, NC, with underwhelming airline traffic when I used to go there regularly on business] gave me a 68nm deviation "to avoid the departure corridor" as I cruised by at 9000' msl . . . Coming back three days later at 10,000 was not a problem. ??? ATC is what it is . . .

[Bob_Belville]

I just flew KMRN-KIWI using KMFV as my fuel stop. Over JFK both ways, 7000 going up 6000 coming back. (I had filed for 8000 above the class B but they wanted me at 6000 through the area.)

 

I found the controllers great. They do have their preferred routes but allowed me skip some of the fixes and cut corners. 

 

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N943RW/history/20130720/1500Z/KMFV/KIWI

[Marauder]

My guess is it all about perception. If you don't say, "Yo! I'm flying here!" around NYC, they will give you a crappy altitude. In my neck of the woods (Philly), you need to check in with a "Hows yous guys doin?" or you will get a crappy altitude. 

[DrBill]

I have found that flyingIFR  10K or more reduces the number of handoffs especially over cities.  Flying to Florida from NC, below 10K i get Columbia, Savannah, Jacksonville, Daytona...etc.  I'd say the number of changes get cut in half if at 10K or more.  I suspect if you file for 10K or 12K you may get a clear pass over the top.

I flew to/from OSH this past week and at 8K and 9K and was switched from one to another. Keeps you awake!

BILL

[201er]

I have found that flyingIFR  10K or more reduces the number of handoffs especially over cities.  Flying to Florida from NC, below 10K i get Columbia, Savannah, Jacksonville, Daytona...etc.  I'd say the number of changes get cut in half if at 10K or more.  I suspect if you file for 10K or 12K you may get a clear pass over the top.

I flew to/from OSH this past week and at 8K and 9K and was switched from one to another. Keeps you awake!

BILL

Yeah. But there are days when it would be illegal to fly at those altitudes without oxygen.

[Hank]

What days is it ever illegal to fly 8000-10,000 feet without oxygen? That's where and how I travel.

[201er]

What days is it ever illegal to fly 8000-10,000 feet without oxygen? That's where and how I travel.

The really hot ones when the DA is really high. Not 8-10. But over 10, yeah.

[Marauder]

What days is it ever illegal to fly 8000-10,000 feet without oxygen? That's where and how I travel.

I think Mike is referring to density altitude, not the the legal requirements for supplemental oxygen under 91.211.

[Super Dave]

The really hot ones when the DA is really high. Not 8-10. But over 10, yeah.

Oxygen requirements are based on pressure altitude.

[201er]

Oxygen requirements are based on pressure altitude.

Sec. 91.211

Supplemental oxygen.

(a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry--

(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;

(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and

[Super Dave]

Sec. 91.211

Supplemental oxygen.

(a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry--

(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;

(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and

Unless you are flying an M22, pressure altitude and cabin pressure altitude are one in the same.

[GaryP1007]

So this time I went, filed 6K and they never moved me up or down.

[FloridaMan]

Leaving NYC on Saturday I heard a Bonanza pilot getting chewed out about being 0.5 miles off an airway. The pilot was saying he was trying to stay out of a cloud, the controller gave him a lecture about being on an IFR flight plan. The clouds were not very thick, but they were a bit bumpy. 

[201er]

Wow, that's pretty bad. I've had the entertainment of listening to a Cheyenne getting chewed out for not knowing how to fly an instrument approach.

[GaryP1007]

I have never had a bad experience with NY controllers.  They are busy and can speak fast, but they help when they can and they always have said thank you to me when I have helped them out.  BUT, it is pretty funny when you hear them call somebody for a bonehead move.

[aviatoreb]

Not long ago when I was flying to KHPN - Westchester County airport, I hear the controller warning a VFR pilot that he was wandering too close to the restricted airspace near West Point which was in fact hot at the time.  The pilot was continuing on seemingly unaware that the controller was trying to save his but, and I and probably every other pilot listening cringed as we were listening as this guy continued right into a violation by penetrating that airspace.  The controller soon gave him the dreaded phone number.  He had plenty of courtesy warning ahead of time.

[PMcClure]

Fast talking NYC controllers - my flight instructor gave me some good advice on my first trip to the area. At the time I was flying 62TC. When the controller was hitting me rapid fire, I came back with a six-Taaaango-Chaaaaarlie in my strongest southern drawl and as slow as possible. I could almost hear him sigh as he gave me the instructions again but a bit slower. On that same trip I talked to Boston controllers the same way. They had a good laugh. 

[John Pleisse]

Dennis Quade was on Letterman not long ago and said when he gets close to NYC Airspace/Boston Center, he puts on an act like Abu from the Simpsons. He speaks in a very heavy Indian accent and kept telling controllers he didn't undertsand hold instructions to procure direct routing. He laughed at Letterman and said it works everytime.

[aviatoreb]

Erik's musings on New York area flying:

 

I flew instrument to Westchester County airport, KHPN on Friday, which is underneath the Laguardia bravo space out shelves.  I was on the nobbi5 arrival.   I always fly instrument in busy places regardless of the weather.

 

I have flown there quite a number of times.  I always seem to get the nobbi5 coming from the north starting at albany.

 

Each time, I always come away just amazed at how much harder the controllers job is down there compared to the airspaces I am more used to up here in the boonies, or even other bravo spaces I have flown to.  By hard, I mean the lady has to talk nonstop - continuously, seemingly without even stopping to breath.  The lady this friday was using a style of speeking so rapid fire talking to airplane after airplane that she was not bothering using any inflection or emotional tone in her voice.  She sounded almost like a computer therefore.  It is really stunning if you stop and listen to a person like that and imagine them doing it nonstop for an eight hour shift.

 

It was clear vfr so my approach was visual, and I was asked to follow a good sized commercial jet to the runway once it was pointed out to me and I spotted it - I forgot which model - I was naturally about 2 min behind it once I was about to turn behind it, and I had been doing about 180kts descending from 3 to 2 and I slowed to 120kts with 9 or 10 mile to go and I was trying to give a tad more space to avoid wake turbulence, but the controller told me to keep it tight.  I complied and managed to keep it "tight" enough but still maybe 125, but a bit slower and I landed at >2min behind the jet and watching its path and landing accordingly.

 

I was thinking what a different life it would be learning your initial PPL from an airport like that.  

 

Wow there are a lot a lot of private jets on that field.  And lots of FBOs to choose from.  I still can't figure how two different fbo's on the same field can offer avgas at a dollar difference per gallon.