Near mid-air collision yesterday

[aaronk25]

I had a near mid-air yesterday over Wisconsin though, but I don't blame ATC.

I was at a lower than normal altitude of 4000ft west bound while on a IFR due to headwinds and a what looked like a Comanche went under my left wing about 30ft below me opposite direction while VMC. I saw the plane about 200 feet ahead and by the time I could grab the yoke (autopilot on) it went by. I'm guessing the UFO was cruising about the same speed as me 155kts or so.

A second later ATC called me and said in a hurry "mooney 1AD traffic, uh actually I think he already passed same altitude, at 4000ft opposite direction it just popped up".

I know this isn't atc fault as radar coverage is spotty at 4k over Wisconsin and its also my responsibility to see and avoid while VMC.

Lessoned learned when in Radar service cruise a couple thousand feet above the "floor" of ATC coverage to allow more time for new climbing vfr traffic to be reported by ATC and keep a better watch out, although at a close rate off 300 plus knots things happen fast. Ill cruise higher for now on and eat the head wind.

[Bennett]

One more reason to have ADS-B in/out in our aircraft. Since I had a Garmin GDL 88 installed I have seen many more "threat" aircraft than I ever have seen with eyeballs only. Yes, I know it makes tracking our aircraft even easier for the various Feds, even on non-talking VFR flights, but they can do that anyway. I opt for safety in the sky, and I will deal with whoever on the ground, should I win that particular lottery.

[aaronk25]

One more reason to have ADS-B in/out in our aircraft. Since I had a Garmin GDL 88 installed I have seen many more "threat" aircraft than I ever have seen with eyeballs only. Yes, I know it makes tracking our aircraft even easier for the various Feds, even on non-talking VFR flights, but they can do that anyway. I opt for safety in the sky, and I will deal with whoever on the ground, should I win that particular lottery.

I wonder if adsb would have shown it if it truly did just pop up on atc scope? The Atc radar is provably 50+ miles away at that location.

If I had zaon I wonder if that would have displayed the traffic due to close proximity of the other mode c transponder to my aircraft where atc radar station was to far away to pick it up.....

Zaon has a new product out with adsb coupled with a remote transponder with ES and pcas might be better? Thoughts?

[takair]

I had a similar encounter with a glider a few years ago (but not quite that close). I assume no transponder. He was circling at the base of the clouds. We saw him, ATC never did. I have a Monroy ATD-300, but we must be aware of situations where none of the technology helps. Other situations are birds. One other gotcha is the traffic pattern at uncontrolled fields and worse yet, fly ins. The area is so saturated that the traffic detectors overwhelm you with traffic, but hard to figure out the threat. The big shows even have you turn off your transponder. I have to remind myself to look out more often. All of our fun Mooney gadgets can keep us occupied.

[Piloto]

I wonder if adsb would have shown it if it truly did just pop up on atc scope? The Atc radar is provably 50+ miles away at that location.

If I had zaon I wonder if that would have displayed the traffic due to close proximity of the other mode c transponder to my aircraft where atc radar station was to far away to pick it up.....

Zaon has a new product out with adsb coupled with a remote transponder with ES and pcas might be better? Thoughts?

 

You are very right. If ATC didn't see the traffic earlier neither your ADS-B in because it shows what ATC see. This is one of the limitations of ADS-B/UAT for pop-up targets. This is more common around small airports with departing traffic where it will not show up until in radar coverage. In this scenario radar coverage is limited by the transponder power rather than the radar power. Typical secondary radar power is 2000 watts vs 200 watts for the transponder. So even though the transponder may be replying to radar interrogations it does not has enough power to reach the ATC radar. This is why the Monroy Traffic-Watch will show traffic below that ATC can not see. Because the Traffic-Watch would be at 5nm and above the traffic vs. the ATC radar at 60nm on the ground.

 

José  

[DaV8or]

This is why we need TAS, or TCAS in our planes. Active interrogation of the planes actually around us regardless of altitude and no dependence on other planes or ground equipment. Sadly, the equipment is still very expensive most of us (myself included) still pass on it.

[kevinp32]

If your aircraft was equipped with the GDL-88 ADS-B transceiver (or any other UAT transceiver) and the other aircraft was equipped with at least ADS-B Out (Extended Squitter transponder), then that traffic would have been visible to you long before ATC knew it was there. If both aircraft were equipped with a GDL-88, then both aircraft would have seen each other, regardless of what kind of ATC coverage there was.  The ATC coverage is important for aircraft that are not equipped with ADS-B Out or with only a Mode C or Mode S transponder. In the case of the near-hit described above, if both aircraft were ADS-B equipped, this would have never happened.   

[larryb]

In 2020 you will see all traffic with your ADSB solution, even if you are out of range of radar and/or a ground station. That's because the ADSB out will transmit the position once every second, and your ADSB in will receive and display it. This is an air-air link, no ground station or radar required.

 

I bought the GDL88 as soon as it was released early this year. It's a great piece of equipment. I wish more people would buy-in so we can see you no matter where you are.

 

Larry

[aviatoreb]

Why would the adsb system be set up to broadcast traffic info if and only if a adsb-our equipped airplane is nearby and making the signal to anyone with an adsb in device. This is so silly and counter what I would think is their mission of promoting safety by denying useful information by not transmitting this useful info on a full time basis. Is there a detail here I am missing?

[Steve65E-NC]

I have a feeling that the Comanche pilot flipped on his transponder at the same time that he was messing in his pants having just seen you on a collision course. Even with his transponder on, unless he had ADS-b out, it would not have helped at all.

[320KPH]

error in yoke seat interface...

[Piloto]

Why would the adsb system be set up to broadcast traffic info if and only if a adsb-our equipped airplane is nearby and making the signal to anyone with an adsb in device. This is so silly and counter what I would think is their mission of promoting safety by denying useful information by not transmitting this useful info on a full time basis. Is there a detail here I am missing?

What you say makes a lot of sense. But the UAT has its limitation. If each UAT broadcast all the traffic around from the ground to 50,000 feet it may overwhelm the system causing wx broadcast interruption or delays and blindeness to itself since it would not see other traffic in the area continuosly. It will also interfere with the ADS-B out broadcast that each plane in the area is doing. By broadcasting only the traffic in your vicinity it reduces the garble of ADS-B transmissions.

 

BTW many GA flights are below 10,000 feet and outside of Class B, C airspace. For these flights you do not need to be ADS-B out equipped by 2020. So there will be a lot of traffic with Mode C only transponders flying around that you will not see unless you are ADS-B out and in equipped. Or have a TCAS or passive traffic sensor.

 

José 

[Dale]

Had a similar close call on Friday while leaving KHWO enroute to marathon. i was westbound and still on with KHWO tower, when my traffic system showed a plane at my altitude headed right for me, apparently headed for KFLL. KHWO tower had him also and notified me of the traffic, I climbed up a couple of hundred feet and the twin went right under me. Closure rate and angle on intercept would have made avoidance difficult had I not had the additional altitude. The area between KFLL, KHWO AND KOPF under the Bravo airspace is incredibly crowded on some days with no less than 10 to 15 aircraft coming up on my traffic system all within a very narrow area. Add to that a number of pilot training, foreign pilots, banner towing, sightseeing excursions, commercial aircraft, cargo planes and you have incredibly crowded airspace. The traffic system in my plane is a life saver as it allows you to focus some of your VFR view in the area of the traffic for visual avoidance, but the altitude readout is especially helpful if someone is right at your altitude.

Things were so hectic on my return flight to KHWO that there was a heated exchange going on between the tower and a student pilot that pulled onto one of the active runways while a plane was on short final causing a go around by the plane on final. The exchange between the tower and the student continued as the student couldn't figure out how to get off the active runway. Then while all this is going on another student (or new) pilot turned a base leg in front of another plane that was on a long final disregarding the towers instructions to continue his downwind leg. Without a good traffic system, constant VFR visual scanning and some pretty good tower personell, this area could be very problematic. But even given all of this traffic, there have been very few problems, thanks to alert pilots and good tower personell. Be safe out there.

[aviatoreb]

What you say makes a lot of sense. But the UAT has its limitation. If each UAT broadcast all the traffic around from the ground to 50,000 feet it may overwhelm the system causing wx broadcast interruption or delays and blindeness to itself since it would not see other traffic in the area continuosly. It will also interfere with the ADS-B out broadcast that each plane in the area is doing. By broadcasting only the traffic in your vicinity it reduces the garble of ADS-B transmissions.

 

BTW many GA flights are below 10,000 feet and outside of Class B, C airspace. For these flights you do not need to be ADS-B out equipped by 2020. So there will be a lot of traffic with Mode C only transponders flying around that you will not see unless you are ADS-B out and in equipped. Or have a TCAS or passive traffic sensor.

 

José 

 

Thanks Piloto - I admit I don't know enough about the details to make my question a statement - its just seems as if it should be designed as I suggest.

[bumper]

This is why when flying VFR it's a good idea to add 100 feet to your cruise altitude if high wing and subtract 100 feet if low wing. Kinda broadens the big sky theory a bit and further reduces the chance of swapping paint. Even with flight following 100 feet won't ruffle feathers at ATC.

 

I use a PowerFlarm in my glider and Husky. PowerFlarm is like a TCAS in that it actively transmits location, altitude, speed and course. In other PF equipped aircraft, this info is used to plot trend and alarm if there is a potential conflict. The Husky has the PF as I'm often flying it in glider rich environments. The PF also has ADS-B in and a PCAS function for transponder equipped planes.

 

If you fly where there's lots of gliders, a PF is well worth considering.

 

bumper

[M016576]

An IFR clearance doesn't relieve the PIC of his visual lookout responsibilities when in VMC. I think that "young" IFR rated pilots tend to view the safe seperation provided by controllers as a relief and huge safety factor. I would somewhat agree if in IMC, but in VMC, it can lull you into a false sense of security. It's not you I'd be worried about, it's all the other VFR traffic out there, some of which may not even have a radio or transponder.

Kind of like riding a motorcycle- I'm much less worried about the actual rider- it's the cars that don't see the motorcyclist that tend to be very deadly.

The safest pilots are the ever vigilant- remember, it's our pink butts in that airplane, not the controllers- and we are ultimately responsible for everything that happens while we're airborne.

Great lesson learned and I applaud the OP for his post and honesty.

[rbridges]

I look around when flying and see all that blue sky, and I've wondered how 2 planes could possibly occupy the same space at the same time, but it happens.

 

I'm glad it was just a scare for you and nothing more serious.

[scottfromiowa]

An IFR clearance doesn't relieve the PIC of his visual lookout responsibilities when in VMC. I think that "young" IFR rated pilots tend to view the safe seperation provided by controllers as a relief and huge safety factor. I would somewhat agree if in IMC, but in VMC, it can lull you into a false sense of security. It's not you I'd be worried about, it's all the other VFR traffic out there, some of which may not even have a radio or transponder.

Kind of like riding a motorcycle- I'm much less worried about the actual rider- it's the cars that don't see the motorcyclist that tend to be very deadly.

The safest pilots are the ever vigilant- remember, it's our pink butts in that airplane, not the controllers- and we are ultimately responsible for everything that happens while we're airborne.

Great lesson learned and I applaud the OP for his post and honesty.

Did OPer do something wrong? I really don't know answer as I am thinking other guy in suspected Piper was east bound at 4000 VFR...NOT 3500 or 5500. I understand his decision to fly higher regardless of headwinds, but had the VFR plane been at correct altitude odd +500 there would have been more separation. Agree at that closing speed tough to pick them out. I fly with my HID landing light on at all times as well as strobes. Glad this ended well.

[DaV8or]

I fly with my HID landing light on at all times as well as strobes. Glad this ended well.

 

I do similar. I fly all the time with the LED landing light on and use the strobes on approach and departure from an airport, or when ATC tells me to look for traffic, or traffic to look for me.

[Marauder]

I look around when flying and see all that blue sky, and I've wondered how 2 planes could possibly occupy the same space at the same time, but it happens.

 

I'm glad it was just a scare for you and nothing more serious.

 

Strange how that works, isn't it? I get the situations where you are entering an airport area and the interactions are more likely to happen. But the ones where you are in the "big sky" area, flying direct to a point and have someone show up are hard to comprehend. But it does happen...

[Bennett]

I do similar. I fly all the time with the LED landing light on and use the strobes on approach and departure from an airport, or when ATC tells me to look for traffic, or traffic to look for me.

I keep my HID "Boom Beam" landing light at all times, along with the LED Landing/Recognition wingtip

lights, and the LED wingtip strobe lights. I generally use the wingtip Landing/Recognition lights in

the alternating pulse mode at approximately 1 pulse per second. I know these are bright as friends on

the ground tell me that can see me several miles away. THe HID and LED have long lives, and even if

they didn't I would still keep them on. My prior Mooney had two lights in the nose bowl, and two

lights in each wing, all incandescent, and the electrical draw was substantial. I only used them when

in the landing environment as the low voltage indicator would flash using them, in spite to two

alternators on line. The old avionics and lights really took a great deal of power compared to the new glass panels and LED lights.

[M016576]

Did OPer do something wrong? I really don't know answer as I am thinking other guy in suspected Piper was east bound at 4000 VFR...NOT 3500 or 5500. I understand his decision to fly higher regardless of headwinds, but had the VFR plane been at correct altitude odd +500 there would have been more separation. Agree at that closing speed tough to pick them out. I fly with my HID landing light on at all times as well as strobes. Glad this ended well.

No, I don't think the OPer did anything wrong- although on review of my initial post, it comes off that way (I apologize for that).

My point was more that a practiced, methodical lookout doctrine needs to be practiced any time in VMC, regardless of the flight rules you are operating under. Sometimes I think we as IFR pilots lose sight of that, and become complacent with controller guidance/reliance. Lets face it: the vast majority of IFR flight is conducted VMC....

As for all the talk of technology being mandatory... Radars miss targets, transponders fail or are not even installed, radios may not even be on.... The best mid air collision avoidance tool is the mark 1 mod 0 eyeball, attached to the most intricate computer in the aircraft- our grey matter! Unfortunately it's not fool proof, though. The technology is certainly a nice SA builder- together, it's a great package.

[rbridges]

I keep my HID "Boom Beam" landing light at all times, 

 

 

I'd love to have one of those.  I put in an LED light.

[1964-M20E]

I have an LED landing light and it is on whenever I'm flying.  Hopefully it will help me be seen but only head on out to about 40 to 45 degrees.

[Piloto]

If you though a pair of eyes will help you spot traffic try seven pairs under ATC radar with TCASII, strobe lights at night in clear weather at 36,000 feet.

 

Watch this 

 

José