Original RayJay Turbo Normalizer v M 20 Turbo v Turbo Bullet

[M20F-1968]

I have a bit of experience here and will chime in:

 

The original JayJay turbo system had its heyday in the 1960's.  RayJay as a company was in California, the STC then went to Kelley Aerospace, and then to ModWorks.  It is now effectively an orphaned STC as ModWorks is no longer an entity.  The STC is not specific to any particular airframe since in those days RayJay did not specify a specific airframe for installation.

 

The original RayJay and the M20 Turbos system are very much the same, except that the M20 system has an intercooler, a pop-off valve and a fixed wastegate.  The configuration of the pipes and installation is different for the two systems.  The Original RayJay utilized the F or E model airbox in the lower part of the cowling nose.  The M20 Turbo system utilized the J model airbox.  This is the prime reason why the M20 Turbo system requires a J model cowling (but the STC paperwork I believe also legally requires the J model cowling).  The expense to install a M20 Turbo system on an E or F is therefore enormous since the J model cowling needs to be installed first.  With the installation of the J model cowling also comes the installation of cowl flanges, new engine baffling, the cost to rebuild a factory original J model cowling, and a DER to sign it all off given prior data since there exists no specific STC to put a J model cowling onto the E or F.  You will also probably want a 201 windshield and cowl deck if you have gotten into the airplane to this extent. 

 

The Original RayJay and the M 20 Turbo systems utilize all the same major parts (turbo and scavenger pump are the same).  The exaust shape and routing are different.  The M 20 Turbo system has a fixed wastegate and the Original RayJay has a manually adjustable wastegate as already mentioned.   The manual wastegate can be completely closed so you can obtain a higher critical altitude which may be preferred.  With the manual wastegate, you can also take the tubo off-line and opersate the engine in a normally aspirated mode as though the turbo was not there at all.  This is completely pilot controlled.

 

Time to install the Original RayJay is about 40 hours.  It is essentially a bolt-on installation. 

 

The M20 Turbo system exhaust and parts are EXACTLY the same as the Turbo Bullet, except that the Turbo Bullet was an attempt to turbo boost a J model which did not work well. 

 

The M20 Turbo system, like to original RayJay, is a system that is limited to turbo normalizing the engine, retains the same pistons and compression ratios as the original normally aspirated engine, and does not have the added engine maintenance of a turbo boosted engine.  The nurbonormalized applications work very well, with more utility of the airplance, no more engine maintenance, and the same operating costs as the normally aspirated engine.

 

FYI:  I have an Original RayJay system, with the major components rebuilt to new condition.  The exhaust pipes are one gauge stainless steel heavier than the original, the wastgate is substantially more beefed-up from the origin (this was a probem with the original parts warping with heat as they were made of exhaust pipe material only) and all paperwork.  I have 2 turbos - one completely rebuilt and one with 300 hrs - both with paperwork, rebuilt scavenger pump with paperwork, both STC's - one to install the turbo on the IO-360 Lycoming and another to install the turbonormalized engine into an E or F model Mooney, the FAA POH letter with operating specs, install manual, parts manual, and all drawings referred to in the STC's.  This is as close to a new system as you will find anywhere.  The man who did the rebuilt of the exhaust pipes used to work at RayJay and had the original jigs.  He now is no longer workin due to a medical problem. 

 

A problem with purchasing a plane with a RayJay already on it is that the turbo normalizer parts parts will probably need rebuilding. 

Further, it is much better to find the best E or F model you can find, and then insaatll the turbo, rather than limit your search for a plane with the turbo on it.  1) As I mentioned, with an original turbo system, the exhaust system will probably need an overhaul, and 2) there may be, and probably are nicer E and F models without the turbo which you would not have seen or evaluated.  As such, you will be limiting your options of aircraft to purchase.

 

For those of you who have the Original RayJay turbonormalizer system already installed,  I have a servicable set of original RayJay exhaust pipes should anyone need them.

 

I have attached pictures.  If anyone would like to call, my cell phone is (617) 877-0025 and my e-mail is johnabreda@yahoo.com

 

Thanks,

John Breda

 

 

[John Pleisse]

The Rayjay in the E's and F's is awesome. The M20 system is too expensive. The Bullet is a no-buy. Solution: 79' 231 with a KFC 200. Their out there for under $85k. Better place to pour money.

[KSMooniac]

Nice summary, John.  I wonder how many Turbo Bullets are still flying.  I heard of one that had the system removed, but whoever did the work neglected to put the high compression pistons back in!  Turned the J into a real dog.

 

Any idea what happened to the Rajay exhaust jigs?  Hopefully they're not lost!

[aerohawk]

Whats the cost difference between the ray jay and the m20 turbo?

[John Pleisse]

Nice summary, John.  I wonder how many Turbo Bullets are still flying.  I heard of one that had the system removed, but whoever did the work neglected to put the high compression pistons back in!  Turned the J into a real dog.

 

Any idea what happened to the Rajay exhaust jigs?  Hopefully they're not lost!

 

I was told, Scott, that the modified engine on the Bullet is a loss, other than core and people who want to convert back have to buy a new engine and fix the fiberglass on the cowling. Is this true?

[Ron McBride]

John

 

I talked to the owners of the Ray Jay STC last year.  Google them, I think that they were in Florida.  They wanted I think less than $300.00 for each STC needed. Price could b e different.

 

Ron

[M20F-1968]

Having just the STC will not help much since you still have to build the parts parts - namely the exhaust system and wastegate, mounting brackets, and ductwork

 

As to the cost difference between the Original RayJay and the M20 Turbo system:

 

Original RayJay -

Kits not available generally

Will need to purchase a rebuildable run-out kit for about $5000 - $6000 and rebuild it

Cost to rebuild each short exhaust pipe - $800 X 2 = $1600

Cost to rebuilt 2 large exhaust pipes $1200 X 2 = $$2400

Cost to rebuild/fabricate wastegate - $1500

The costs to rebuild the exhaust system and wastegate depends upon having the fabrication jigs -

without these the costs are at least double those listed.

Cost to rebuild scavenger pump $750

Cost to rebuild turbo  $2300

Costs of hoses and rubber parts $800

 

This gives rise to the $16,000 price  I am looking for my rebuilt system..

 

The cost to install the original RayJay is based on 40 hrs labor.  With the original RayJay system - you use the original air box and the original cowling.

 

 

M20 Turbos system on an E or F:

Obtain used J model cowling - about $2000

Rebuild used J model cowling - $10,000

Pull engine, engine mount and firewall

Install cowling flanges

Fit and install rebuild cowling. including cutting back firewall flange and side panels

? install new cowl deck if you want 201 windshield

Noe engine baffling, new spinner and bulkhead

oil cooler relocation

new cowl flap mechanisms and parts

Rebuild engine mount to weld on attachments for 201 cowl flaps

Price of a DER to approve the J model cowling installation since there is no STC for this.

 

Also this will run in excess of $30,000 just to install the J model cowling on an E or F

 

Cost of M20 Turbos kit - current price $33,900

Install price for RayJay M20 Turbo kit after J model cowling installed - about 40 hours

 

Total cost for installing J model cowling and M20 Turbos system $30,000 + $33,900 + 40 hrs labor = approx $70,000

 

Don't even think of using a Lopresti cowling with a RayJay as the cooling is insufficient and the cowling inlets need to be enlarged substantially.

 

John Breda

[N201MKTurbo]

I think you are high on the cowl repair. I completely rebuilt my cowl. Most of the work was replacing the previous repair jobs which were done with polyester resin instead of epoxy.

 

I believe the cowl mods for the M20 Turbo installation along with normal repairs and paint could be done in 40 hours or less @ $75/Hr. =  $3000. Materials should be about $350.00 Far less then the $10,000 you quote.

 

I think your prices on welding are a bit high.

[M20F-1968]

I am basing my cowl rebuild quote on what I personally spent.  I purchased a used J model cowling from Lopresti which cost $2000.  It cost $8,000 for a fiberglass shop to rebuild it with flame retardant resin.  I then spend another $4,000 for Tejas to do additional fiberglass work on the cowling when the plane was painted.

 

John Breda

[N601RX]

Out of curosity how much does a DER charge to approve something like a 201 cowl mod on a F model?

[N201MKTurbo]

I am basing my cowl rebuild quote on what I personally spent.  I purchased a used J model cowling from Lopresti which cost $2000.  It cost $8,000 for a fiberglass shop to rebuild it with flame retardant resin.  I then spend another $4,000 for Tejas to do additional fiberglass work on the cowling when the plane was painted.

 

John Breda

 

Fair enough. If the cowl you bought was as screwed up as mine when I started it could be that much. I lost count of how much time I spent on it. It took most of my spare time for two months.

 I was talking about a 201 cowl that hadn't been butchered by mechanics that don't know how to read a service manual. And Antimony trioxide (fire proof epoxy additive) is kind of hard to come by. I found someone on EBAY who sold me a pound for $20.00.

[Beard]

I just came across these old posts about the Turbo Bullet. I have a 1984 M20J with the Turbo Bullet conversion. The engine has 1625 hours on it and I am wondering when it will give up the ghost and have to be rebuilt. Everything works well right now, but the time will come when it does not.  I was told that it originally started as a full turbo, but due to an accident was reduced to a turbo normalizer. I can still get 38" of boost. All that was done was for a red line to be put on the manifold pressure gauge limiting it to 33". I never take it above the 33". My question is to those who may know, is when I have to rebuild the engine would it be better to change it back to a normal M20J? I would do it right and use high compression pistons? I enquired about five years ago and was told that I could get the Ray Jay turbo overhauled relatively easily and with not out of this world costs.

 

Doe anyone one have any insight into this question? Convert back to normal or rebuild Turbo Bullet.

[KSMooniac]

Welcome to Mooneyspace.

 

It wasn't reduced to a turbo-normalizer, technically speaking.  It was STC'd at way too much boost originally, and then restricted via AD after the 1993 accident back to 33".  I believe 33" + the low compression pistons = 200 hp to match the original power output of the engine.  38" was substantially more than 200 hp and never should have been certified in my opinion.  So at 33" you have the same power as a normal J, but lower engine efficiency and you have to go high to make it pay off.  A turbo-normalizer keeps the high compression pistons and has a max MP of 30" & 200 hp.  It is just as efficient as the regular engine, but can maintain that 200 hp up into the high teens.

 

As far as your question about converting back... that is up to you and how you fly the plane.  If you like to take long trips, fly high, cross high terrain, or any combo of those, then running the turbo might continue to make sense.  Aren't there some extra cowl vents with that mod?  I can't remember... and if so you'd likely want to remove those and patch the cowl.  I believe the mod is still supported through Rocket Engineering if you ever need the custom parts, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

 

If it were me, I'd keep it on there.  I'd rather have a true turbo-normalizer, but turbo would be nicer than not IMO.  

[carusoam]

Who generated/owned the turbo bullet STC?

I was looking for details if there was anything changed (cylinders) or just added (turbo/exhaust)...

The most recent turbo offerings from Mooney & Cirrus use TNs. The engine isn't changed (IO550(g))

OH can be done on both the engine and turbo systems...

There may be an OH'd turbo for sale here on MS. Check for details as usual... See posts from John Breda (above).

Welcome aboard,

-a-

[KSMooniac]

Darwin Conrad of Rocket Engineering fame developed the Turbo Bullet STC before he did the Missile and Rocket conversions.  I don't know how long it was on the market, or how many were converted before it was pulled.  Finding any reference to it these days is pretty difficult.  I'm not even 100% sure that Conrad still owns the STC.  I believe there was an attempt to expand it to the E & F with an outside investor at one point, but that deal fell through before it was completed.  

 

It DOES use low compression pistons, so the jugs had to come off during the conversion.

[Beard]

Thank you everyone for your input. I know the day will be coming when I must tackle this question and want to be prepared.

[M20F]

Main Turbo is a great resource for any and all turbo related stuff, they have done good work on my friends 320 and my Rayjay. For at least the Rayjay the keeping it working expense has been low for me and well worth the benefit. The turbo bullet being a charger instead of a normalizer adds a differing set of problems but if you manage power as if a normalizer you should see the same mileage I would think.

[yvesg]

I would like to revive this thread: I have the opportunity right now to acquire a share in a 201 which has the Bullet conversion. Of course I would need to sell my C since I cannot afford maintaining 1 1/2 aircraft. Before I make a decision on this I need to understand what are the risks associated with that turbo Mooney? I did some quick research and I read several comments that this is not good, stay away from it but very few detailed explanations on why? There are a few instances of turbo removals here and there but still no why?

Is the service ceiling of the Turbo Bullet comparable to other turbos? How much is it?

Are turbo parts available if something goes bad?

Thanks

Yves

 

[KSMooniac]

The TB conversion is no longer supported.  I've not seen the POH supplement for one, but I doubt it officially changes the J service ceiling beyond the 18,800 (if memory serves) but I could be mistaken.  IMO, the biggest risk is poor engine management by the pilot... ie running way too much power and improper mixtures that will make the engine run very hot and with high internal cylinder pressures.  Before getting into one, I would want to know the service history of the engine (ie how many hours and overhauls, and especially the age of the cylinders) and the operational philosophy of the primary pilot(s).  If they ran at 75% and 50 ROP I'd stay away.  It requires careful throttle management to not over boost the engine.  A recording engine monitor would be mandatory IMO.

You'll also want to make sure the AD that lowered max MP down to 33" has been complied with.  The original version ran all the way up to 38" IIRC and that caused some engine destructions.  33" is about equivalent to the regular IO-360 at 30" in terms of power.  

Beyond that, the turbo, scavenge pump, wastegate, valves, etc. are off-the-shelf components.  The cylinders are regular lycoming parts, but with low compression pistons instead.  The exhaust is custom, but should be repairable by a proper shop.  You'll likely not be able to order a replacement and thus if you have a crack it will be sent out and you'll have down time.  

If none of that scares you away, then you can just have the regular debate about a turbo being right for your mission.  With the low compression pistons, the engine will be less efficient than the one in your C at altitudes below ~10,000'.  Maybe the bigger back seat and higher speed is worth the upgrade for you?  Go into the deal with open eyes that the modified J's are generally worth less than stock in today's market with an un-supported modification, so don't overpay going into a partnership.

[aviatoreb]

8 hours ago, yvesg said:

I would like to revive this thread: I have the opportunity right now to acquire a share in a 201 which has the Bullet conversion. Of course I would need to sell my C since I cannot afford maintaining 1 1/2 aircraft. Before I make a decision on this I need to understand what are the risks associated with that turbo Mooney? I did some quick research and I read several comments that this is not good, stay away from it but very few detailed explanations on why? There are a few instances of turbo removals here and there but still no why?

Is the service ceiling of the Turbo Bullet comparable to other turbos? How much is it?

Are turbo parts available if something goes bad?

Thanks

Yves

 

Hi Yves, Is that other airplane on your airfield (or will it be)?  Will it be less expensive to own half this airplane than your C - moving forward now that you already own your beautifully custom painted C?  I would think that turbo or no turbo, for pride of ownership and also access having your own C is nicer than any J.  I don't know anything about the turbo J converted J's but there is a turbo converted M20E on our airfield and the owner seems to be a happy camper is all I can tell from the outside.

[M20F]

Bruce Chien on the AOPA forums used to own one from what I recall he wasn't a fan.  You may want to PM him there assuming you are a member and he can give you direct feedback on ownership.

[Beard]

I own a 1984 J with the Turbo Bullet conversion. It still gives 38" of boost, but is placarded down to 33". I must admit that in the 6 years that I have owned it I have used the 38" for a very short period and it has performed quite well, good speed. However, when flying it at 33" in the lower altitudes, up to 7,000 ft, I am not as fast as a non turbo J. I have done a few comparisons with other stock 201s and they have left me in their dust. Maybe my engine is putting out less horse power that it should be at its close to 1800 hours, but I am not pleased with it performance. When climbing after take off I am at best getting 600 - 700 FPM on a warm day near sea level at 75 kts. It does climb well at higher altitudes when in cruise. I don't fly at higher altitudes so cannot report on them.

When my conversion was originally done it was for a true turbo so it had low compression pistons installed. It is very clear to me that my 201 with it's low compression pistons and max allowable boost of 33" makes it slower than if it was left stock.

I am starting to gather info on reverting it back to non turbo when it is time to rebuild the engine. I am not at all pleased with my Turbo Bullet conversion and wish I had not bought it.

I have been told that rebuilding the turbo would not be a difficult thing nor extremely expensive.

Other than only focussing on reliablity and cost of repairs, I would like to suugest that you fly this aircraft you are lookin at getting a share in and experience the climb out and top speed. Compare this to stock 201s. If it performs like mine it may be an eye opener for you.

Good luck.

[M20F]

What horsepower is the engine supposed to be rated at 38"?

[Beard]

I believe it it is still the 200 HP. The bonus is keeping max HP at altitude. Not entirely sure.

[yvesg]

Thanks KSMooniac, Erik and Beard for your comments and suggestions. I have not made my decision on this yet. There are so many variables that it makes it very complex. As Erik said, I own my C alone (while I wish I could find an appropriate partner to share expenses). The 201 I am offered the share on has a few more things that I wish I have on my C (such as an autopilot), better climb and speed at altitude... but it has a non-waas 430 which I would be missing since the C has waas.

It is annual time for the C (and mandatory 10 years prop overhaul), so I will go through that first.

There are so many pros and cons that it does not make it easy at all. I typically do long trips only once or twice a year. This is when I wish I could fly up tp 18 to 20 thousands above some weather. But the rest of the year, I am below 10 thousands.

Beard, what is the service ceiling with the Bullet conversion?

Thanks again.

Yves