Mooney down at Angelfire

[mooneygirl]

Well here is my two cents, so feel free to blast away.  First, my thoughts and prayers are with Mr. Verhalen Sr.  He lost his son, his daughter and his grand-daughter.  Secondly we are only as safe as our last decision. So we need to make sure our last decision is our best decision.  We have tragically lost several from MooneySpace, in what appears to be a kink in the decision-making process.

I am not going to speculate, but John was a second-generation Mooney pilot, and he worked for Mooney. So I really wouldn't feel comfortable calling him an amatuer.  What matters, for us all, is that our last decision is the best decision we have ever made in the air, or before we head out in the airplane.

I hope we all can learn from these tragedies and be safer pilots. 

God Speed John. You will be missed.

[jax88]

This is an opportunity for all of us to re-examine our personal minimums, and a reminder to do so realistically.

[xftrplt]

Sorry, mooneygirl, but I'm with Byron.

He may have been an nth-generation Mooney pilot, but, as far as I know, airmanship isn't genetically transmitted.

He was employed as an engineer, not a pilot. Hence a professional engineer but an amateur* pilot.

And, condolences aside, his stupidity cost three innocent lives.

*No pejorative intended. For example, Schliemann and Troy.

(And after 50 years of flying, 40 professionally, I am now, again, an amateur.)

[fantom]

Sorry, but I'm with Byron.

He may have been an nth-generation Mooney pilot, but, as far as I know, airmanship isn't genetically transmitted.

He was employed as an engineer, not a pilot. Hence an professional engineer but an amateur* pilot.

And, condolences aside, his stupidity cost three innocent lives.

*No pejorative intended. For example, Schliemann and Troy.

(And after 50 years of flying, 40 professionally, I am now, again, an amateur.)

 

Couldn't agree more.....'stupid is as stupid does', this time with very tragic results. I read of many stupid pilots on Mooneyspace, and have had my share. This isn't the kind many most of us would ever make. I feel bad for John, but I'm also very disappointed in him.

 

Don't kid yourself this crash reflects badly on all pilots, on GA, and on Mooney, not to mention our insurance rates.

 

Personal accountability and responsibility ARE critical when flying, regardless of the current apologist fashion of never taking any.

[PTK]

“He was very good about checking the things that need to be checked and going the extra mile to make sure everything that can be done will be done to make it a safe flight.”

This is what Bill Woodward said. He is the father of this idiot pilot's girlfriend who was killed. Shows the trust these poor innocent bystanders have. Real tragic.

[Alan Fox]

Well lets look at the "up" side to this tragedy , Perhaps someone will learn from this and make a better decision in the future...

[FloridaMan]

Is it possible that, while we see the one minute METAR as it was, that it may have changed in the minutes between him checking the weather and taking the runway or that he caught something else, like climbing into wind shear or a mountain wave? I've never been to that airport, but I know that during smooth flying conditions in NM I found myself doing 15 seconds of wind induced aerobatics out of nowhere. 

[aviatoreb]

“He was very good about checking the things that need to be checked and going the extra mile to make sure everything that can be done will be done to make it a safe flight.”

This is what Bill Woodward said. He is the father of this idiot pilot's girlfriend who was killed. Shows the trust these poor innocent bystanders have. Real tragic.

 

No kidding.  Wow.

 

I am reticent to simply call the pilot an idiot and wash my hands of it and declare to myself that it is so different from anything I would never do that this guy is so different from me that I don't even need to worry about it.  So calling him an idiot is in some sense perhaps distancing ourselves from him and telling ourselves it would never happen to us.

 

Reading what you quoted from Bill Woodward suggests that at least most of the time he appeared as a careful and appropriately prudent pilot.  Obviously he was not all of the time.  There was a screw loose in his decision making process.  But here is the part we must all take from Bill Woodwards comment - could the same be said about ME?  Nonetheless did I ever make a decision that I regret but got away with it that time - or almost made a bad decision - even if we got away with it that time?  So I assert that not calling him an idiot isn't just a matter of sugar coating in a culture of PC/not insulting people, but instead it is a mechanism to internalize the possibility that any of us has the potential to make an absolutely bad decision, as this guy did, and in admitting that, we affirm to ourselves that we vow not to make that decision.  So I am calling it a psychological mechanism to empathize with him as a means to own it, to internalize his lesson to self affirm that we will not do it ourselves.

[jetdriven]

I wouldnt go as far as calling Verhalen an idiot, I think he simply misjudged the conditions and made the decision to go, which, in retrospect, didnt work out well. I hope others learn from this when the real accident report comes out, and that it serves a warning to all us others.

 

By "amateur pilot" I wasnt trying to trash his reputation. Xftrpilot said it best, he was a professional engineer who enjoyed flying as a hobby. I just wish more of them would get annual recurrent training that pushes their comfort boundary and makes them handle more situations better.

[PTK]

...at least most of the time he appeared as a careful and appropriately prudent pilot... 

...so I am calling it a psychological mechanism to empathize with him as a means to own it, to internalize his lesson to self affirm that we will not do it ourselves.

This is precisely the point. He "appeared" careful and prudent. Was this, however, an impression based on reality or his perception of reality. Certainly his prudent decision making skills were real as they impressed the innocent bystanders he killed. His frivolity fooled his passengers and even himself as it tragically consumed his better judgement.

To "empathize" with this particular individual in this instance means to understand and share his decision making process. I don't see how this is possible.

[Marauder]

This is precisely the point. He "appeared" careful and prudent. Was this, however, an impression based on reality or his perception of reality. Certainly it was real to the innocent bystanders he killed. His frivolity fooled his passengers and even himself as it tragically consumed his better judgement.

To "empathize" with this particular individual means to understand and share his decision making process. I don't see how this is possible.

 

 I share similar sentiments. I think we all know pilots who we may question their decision making. Whether it be one who ignores maintenance, takes off in questionable weather or is over confident in their or their plane's abilities. And I have been personally told to f*&w off because I spoke up when I saw someone flying a home brewed instrument approach into our airport that didn't have an approach at that time.

 

My obvious concern is being regulated. If we don't self regulate, we leave the door open for it. For years drinking and driving crashes were called "accidents" and you never heard anyone going to jail for killing someone with their car while drunk. Times change.

 

If I am doing something unsafe as a pilot, I hope my pilot friends say something to me. My judgment is based on my experience and I for one don't have all the experience others have.

[Hank]

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement."

 

I don't think I'm the only one here who, in retrospect, can say I have made bad judgement calls about flying. There are a couple of departures that almost immediately had me wishing to still be on the ground. Obviously I survived, and gained experience, and now have the judgement to make better decisions in the future, because I know what those decisions led to. No one tried to talk me out of it, or mentioned the gusty winds / bad local conditions. I looked, I judged, I departed, and I learned.

 

But aviation can be terribly unforgiving of mistakes. The more you fly, the more you can handle, and it's easy to broaden your limits; when you hit a period with less flying, it can be hard to remember to lower your limits or to figure out by how much.

 

Personally, 35G50 is outside my limits regardless of wind direction. But that's why they are called "personal limits" and they apply to much more than just wind strength.

 

"You should learn from other people's mistakes, because you won't live long enough to make them all yourself." That is what we can all take from this, without condemning the pilot or asserting our own superiority.

[mooneygirl]

I am sticking with my observation that as a whole, our decision-making must be stellar.  Every time we have to think this could be the last time.  The take away here isn't that we are soothing our tattering egos because we lost someone, or tyring to be "holier than thou".  We have all done stupid shit, that is for sure.  The take away here is be gracious, let yourself be a learner instead of always being the guru.  Take a moment and think of those who are left behind. Geez, maybe you all just have compassion fatique.

[PTK]

But there were strong gusty winds across northern New Mexico Sunday afternoon Airport manager Harvey Wright said and

"we had all kinds of warnings posted on the front desk, plus we questioned the pilot as to whether he really wanted to go in that weather,"

...the pilot,

"felt comfortable with his abilities and the aircraft. And given as we are not policemen, we can't ask him for the keys."  

He did not heed the warnings and the advice. He wasn't alone. He took passengers, at gross and from 8379.5 foot DA.

His actions are criminal and indefensible.

Sure! There's a lesson to be learned here.

[TTaylor]

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement."

 

I don't think I'm the only one here who, in retrospect, can say I have made bad judgement calls about flying. There are a couple of departures that almost immediately had me wishing to still be on the ground. Obviously I survived, and gained experience, and now have the judgement to make better decisions in the future, because I know what those decisions led to. No one tried to talk me out of it, or mentioned the gusty winds / bad local conditions. I looked, I judged, I departed, and I learned.

 

But aviation can be terribly unforgiving of mistakes. The more you fly, the more you can handle, and it's easy to broaden your limits; when you hit a period with less flying, it can be hard to remember to lower your limits or to figure out by how much.

 

Personally, 35G50 is outside my limits regardless of wind direction. But that's why they are called "personal limits" and they apply to much more than just wind strength.

 

"You should learn from other people's mistakes, because you won't live long enough to make them all yourself." That is what we can all take from this, without condemning the pilot or asserting our own superiority.

 

Unfortunately it was not just one issue.

 

Most accidents are the result of multiple factors.  Here were at least three majors factors:

1. Wind 35G50 crosswind.

2. Altitude (likely 8000 or more DA)

3. Geography around the airport.  This is directly downwind of a ridge line. The crosswind is going to make low level shear and the ridge is going to generate downdrafts. 

 

Add a plane likely near max gross weight and you have no power to spare.  Any one of these is enough to use caution, Mix all of the above and you should be seeing major red flags.

[Hank]

That's called "bad judgement." Realising the reality and effect of #2 is difficult for a flatlander without mountain experience. I have no idea about his flight experience. The combination of #3 may also be difficult for someone who has little mountain experience.

 

I agree that his takeoff was a poor decision. Accidents frequently have multiple causes, and pilot judgement is often involved. Such is apparently the case here. There may or may not have been mechanical issues at play; there may or may not have been W&B issues involved; there may or may not have been fuel issues at play, but since it all burned up we will never know.

 

Strong winds make me more cautious; gross weight operations make me cautious; high DA makes me cautious. I've had enough experience with the first to not like it and avoid it when possible; the second reduces climb rate, more so during the summer; I don't do enough of the latter to know for sure just what my plane will tolerate and what it won't. Geography I'm used to dealing with in the Appalachians, ever since my student days, and fully realize that the Rockies are a whole 'nother story.

 

I've read enough accident reports, and watched one Bonanza overrun video, that I know to avoid high DA takeoffs loaded anywhere near gross weight. We have ridges parallel to my home field, ~¼ mile away, so I know about squirrely winds first-hand. This accident just reinforces the matter. It also creates additional "small planes aren't safe" material for us all to deal with. Perceptions do not have to match reality to cause problems for us all [perceptions about GA, not about pre-takeoff or in-flight decision making].

[mooniac58]

Yeah we learn about the links in the chain of an accident and I really think this chain was pretty much complete before the takeoff roll.  It is too bad that average non-pilot citizens don't understand more about aviation...otherwise I doubt the 3 passengers would have let this happen.  If a driver of a car is doing something idiotic or unsafe the common person knows it and hopefully tries to stop it or at least ask to be let out of the vehicle.  I know given my knowledge I never would have climbed into that Mooney to depart AF on that day, with any pilot.

 

RIP.

[midlifeflyer]

3. Geography around the airport.  This is directly downwind of a ridge line. The crosswind is going to make low level shear and the ridge is going to generate downdrafts. 

Worse. There's also the ridge on the windward side. The end result can be a bit like the mixture on the floor of a canyon.

 

For anyone interested, AOPA's foundation recently came out with a mountain flying course. http://flash.aopa.org/asf/mountainFlying/html/flash.cfm? I ran through it and, while not a substitute for personal instruction, it's pretty decent in hitting the highlights.

[N33GG]

We have all done stupid shit, that is for sure.  The take away here is be gracious, let yourself be a learner instead of always being the guru. 

 

As long as "stupid shit" is extremely plural, this statement is very true for me.  And being gracious is always in order and a good idea.  Well stated Mooneygirl!

[KSMooniac]

Something to remember.... takeoffs are ALWAYS optional.  I'll be very interested in the NTSB report, but it sure looks like there were enough signs to make any prudent pilot stay on the ground in this case.  Perhaps he had get-home-itis raging...who knows?  I wonder what his WX brief revealed to him.  I consider myself a cautious and prudent decision maker, but if a local pilot or airport manager recommended that I not launch at an unfamiliar and very challenging airport, I'd like to think that would be enough to make me stand down.

 

Leaving Henderson field (Las Vegas) several years ago on an April afternoon, I got a very unwelcome surprise on my takeoff roll and was fortunate I didn't bend metal.  Winds were strong and gusty (I think ~25G30 or 35) but mostly down the runway.  That is fairly normal for my home base in KS, so I didn't think much of it as I have a lot of experience with those kinds of winds.  A few seconds before my planned rotation, I got a HUGE gust that picked up a wing and weathervaned me while going into the wheelbarrow stance.  Needless to say, I was shocked and managed to get the plane off of the runway and back under control (level, but crabbed), and stayed in ground effect until getting my airspeed safely above stall and then to climb speed.  It happened so quickly I didn't really consciously think about what I did, but it worked out well enough that I didn't have a prop strike or even worse drag a wingtip.  As I was climbing away, I heard a CIrrus that was behind me for takeoff ask the tower for a wind check, and the reply was 35 knots about 45 degrees to the runway (I don't remember the directions now) with peak gusts of 50 knots within the last minute.  He wisely decided to sit tight and watch the windsock for a while to see if it was going to change again as I'm sure he saw my wild dance and thought he better not try the same thing.  I wouldn't have even started the plane if the METAR showed what I ended up experiencing... 

 

We all need to keep in mind that takeoffs are always optional, unless your airfield is on fire and/or overrun with zombies and you have no other place to go...

[Earl]

Geez, I am thinking of the flight I took on Sunday with my wife and daughter into Greensboro, NC.  Forecast winds were 19G25 and a 90 deg crosswind at the airport I was originally planning to use.  I changed to KGSO to get less xwind and a longer, wider runway.  By myself no problem trying for my original destination thinking I will likely go around and head to a more favorable airport.  With my family?  Forget it.  

 

I cannot imagine departing from that airport in those wind conditions, with or without my family.  I have my computer and cell phone and can work from pretty much anywhere.  Nothing on my schedule would be that important.  Sadly, I suspect his passengers totally trusted his judgment right up to the point where he stalled and they were staring at terra firma coming toward them at a high rate of speed.  Indeed we are only as good as our last risk management decision......wow.....  

[Marauder]

We all need to keep in mind that takeoffs are always optional, unless your airfield is on fire and/or overrun with zombies and you have no other place to go...

 

I absolutely hate it when the zombies set my airfield on fire! Especially if I haven't pulled the Wonder Waffle out of the box yet! http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_3eLpJhG8has/TI2gBqOfYlI/AAAAAAAAAL4/K7KQAnscenE/s1600/Wonder+Waffle.png

[aviatoreb]

This is precisely the point. He "appeared" careful and prudent. Was this, however, an impression based on reality or his perception of reality. Certainly his prudent decision making skills were real as they impressed the innocent bystanders he killed. His frivolity fooled his passengers and even himself as it tragically consumed his better judgement.

To "empathize" with this particular individual in this instance means to understand and share his decision making process. I don't see how this is possible.

 

You are choosing to turn what I said upside down.  That is not what I said and you paraphrased out the crucial part of what I did say.

 

I said that by empathizing we acknowledge that we too must be careful not to make such a decision and that we too are otherwise susceptible.  I simply said that to otherwise wash our hands of his actions as impossible for our own selves to make is dangerously close for some to simply be stating that we are just better than that so it is nothing to worry about. Isn't that just one step shy of invincibility?  Empathy brings us closer to learning the lesson here.  Turn that around as you wish but it works for me.

[PTK]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you really meant aviatoreb. It wasn't my intention to turn anything you said upside down. Not at all.

Certainly "empathy" would not the proper expression here. Sympathy for the families involved, absolutely. But to empathize with this guy would be to sugarcoat and somehow excuse what he did as it could happen to anyone. This tragedy didn't just happen. He caused it.

[Smiles201]

It would be more helpful and more accurate to try and figure out what would lead a good pilot to make a poor decision. He may have felt pressure to get home, to show his passengers his skills, or felt that he would be okay because he had handled strong winds before. He may have fooled himself into believing that he would get some updrafts once he reached the hills on the eastern edge of the valley. At least every year or two someone crashes here due to downdrafts in high wind. A few years ago a bonanza with seven on board went down about 40 miles east of angel fire, the pilot was based in phx, probably not familiar with the affects of high winds in the mountains. This is a chronic problem, good pilots making poor decisions. One we all have to watch for.