F model with J mods versus J

[kevmor]

If you add the 201 windshield and cowling, along with gap seals on the empennage and wing roots, will an early F be as fast as a J model? Doesn't the J also have a fairing on the vertical stabilizer? Although on a pre-1970's F, it should have a slightly less empty weight with the manual gear/flaps... How much speed do you lose with a 3 blade McCauley prop?

 

Thanks!

[Marauder]

I can't speak to the pre-1970 performance as my F is a 1975. I have the 201 windshield, flap/aileron gap seals, lower nose enclosure and step removed. I don't have my POH in front of me but I believe the POH suggests a TAS of something in the 145 to 148k range for the altitudes I fly at. I see actual TAS in the 152 to 156k range. I think the windshield probably has a big impact.

 

 

 

 

 

[KSMooniac]

I think the true J cowl and windshield will get you most of the way there.  A 3-blade prop could/will/might cost you 3-5 knots, but it is hard to compare apples to apples here.  The tail fairings are relatively inexpensive and easy to add but would need paint as well.  Lower overall weight and simpler systems are a big plus IMO.  

 

The most important thing is to have a straight and true airplane that is rigged correctly.  That includes all movable surfaces and gear doors.  Easier said than done, though!  In my observation, two otherwise identical Mooneys will fly at different speeds due to the nature of hand-built construction and various rigging differences.  

 

Are you talking about your current plane, or a prospective plane for purchase?

[kevmor]

Thanks for the info, this is for a plane I might be considering purchasing. I was told the 3 blade helps some with climb performance, but I guess ultimately I need to test fly it and see how it performs.

[1964-M20E]

My F model has most of the 201 mods done lacking a newer cowling. The advantage I see with mine over a 201 is I still have the manual gear and manual flaps and I have the retractable step.

[KSMooniac]

Don't get too hung up on the speed as long as it is in the ballpark, IMO.  As much as we all want to have the fastest possible plane, the fact is they're all a bit different and if one candidate does 145 KTAS and another does 148 KTAS, well, you're not going to notice it except on those non-stop 1000 nm trips.  Concentrate on airframe condition, equipment, maintenance history (especially recent use and maintenance) and then cosmetics IMO.  The 201 mods on an F are nice to have, but the real advantage to the F is the (likely) lower weight and simpler systems.  The disadvantages include possible shotgun instrument panel and "vintage" or lack of autopilot.

 

If it has a true 201 cowl and windshield...that is really nice as those are very hard to duplicate these days.  I'm not a fan of the metal 3-blade props because they offer no real advantages on Mooneys.  They're significantly heavier, frequently have increased vibration, no additional ground clearance, and slower cruise speed.  I wouldn't let it stop me from buying an otherwise great plane, but it would be a value reduction in my book.

 

If you haven't searched here, there are several good threads about what to look for when evaluating a potential purchase.

[Hank]

When Mooney/LoPresti made the J model from the F, various aerodynamic changes were made, some of which have not been disclosed. Cowl, windshield, gap seals, wing/stab root fairings are all obvious; the stabilizer fairing is there, wingtips to cover position lights, lower gear doors to cover more of the wheel when retracted, these we can also see. But in the quest to hit 200 mph on 200 hp, many additional minor tweaks were made, 1 & 2 mph at a time. I think the induction under the cowling was changed [when did the doghouse go away? I need to fix mine . . . ], an additional cover was put over the landing light, antennas were repositioned, etc.

 

Either one [F or J] should do well, as inside they are the same [at least the electric F's]. Condition, maintenance history and installed equipment is what I would concentrate on. Search here for George Perry's excellent, detailed thread on what to know and what to look for when buying a vintage Mooney. Can't get any better information than that. If I ever replace my plane, that thread is what I will start with. Then of course, there is a PPI by a knowledgable shop who has not been working on the candidate plane.

 

Have fun, relax and enjoy the search process. Haste makes waste, especially when buying an airplane.

[Marauder]

When Mooney/LoPresti made the J model from the F, various aerodynamic changes were made, some of which have not been disclosed. Cowl, windshield, gap seals, wing/stab root fairings are all obvious; the stabilizer fairing is there, wingtips to cover position lights, lower gear doors to cover more of the wheel when retracted, these we can also see. But in the quest to hit 200 mph on 200 hp, many additional minor tweaks were made, 1 & 2 mph at a time. I think the induction under the cowling was changed [when did the doghouse go away? I need to fix mine . . . ], an additional cover was put over the landing light, antennas were repositioned, etc. Either one [F or J] should do well, as inside they are the same [at least the electric F's]. Condition, maintenance history and installed equipment is what I would concentrate on. Search here for George Perry's excellent, detailed thread on what to know and what to look for when buying a vintage Mooney. Can't get any better information than that. If I ever replace my plane, that thread is what I will start with. Then of course, there is a PPI by a knowledgable shop who has not been working on the candidate plane. Have fun, relax and enjoy the search process. Haste makes waste, especially when buying an airplane.

Spot on Hank. Well said. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[KSMooniac]

Minor correction... the J's didn't get wingtips until later, like 1981 IIRC.  My '77 has the square tips just like the pre-J planes.  I don't think the factory tips are much of a speed mod unless you hide the nav antennas in there, though.  The J induction system is much better than the E and F, though.

[Bennett]

In my experience, a really clean well flown E or F with speed mods will out-climb my J, and the cruise TAS is not all that different. My J has all the major speed mods, a LoPresti cowl, PowerFlow exhaust system. recent paint that is kept well polished, the "Top Prop" two bladed propeller, flow matched cylinders, (but too many antennas), and a one piece belly pan, and yet one of our forum members who owns a very clean E model with a 201 windshield, one piece belly pan, and modified cowl will beat me every time in a typical 75 -100 mile two aircraft fly-out. The E has a 3 bladed prop which helps him enormously in climb, and also allows him to keep his speed up closer to the destination airport as that 3 bladed prop really slows him down when he wants to join the pattern. Even though I have speed brakes and use them, it takes me longer to lose speed. Yes, I can fly marginally faster in cruise - 158 to160 Kts TAS (depending on temperature) at 8500' using the LoPresti ram air system, 2550 RPM, and moderately LOP. If I run ROP, the speed barely changes, (perhaps an increase of two Knots), but the fuel flow increases by several GPH. I think playing with optimum altitudes for winds aloft makes more of a difference than relative speed. He generally chooses to fly at lower altitudes than I like, and my slower rate of climb means I am spending time climbing while he is already in cruise. The speed I pickup descending doesn't make up for this, and therefore our block times are close, but with him being first every time. Good fun, and I keep trying to catch him, but his lighter, less draggy, modified E is a great plane. Now if I still had my modified K, and the distances were longer, it would be an entirely different story.

[John Pleisse]

Buy the early J and spend capital on the engine, avionics and airframe. i did. I almost pulled the trigger on several modified F's. Get the early J. Better yet, put a crow bar in your wallet and opt for an 83. the best bang for the buck.

[KSMooniac]

I'm (obviously) in favor of a J over an F, but if budget is the concern the modified F at $20k+ less than an early J is nothing to sneeze at.  You still get 90% of the capability at a significant discount.  The flipside to that is no matter how many mods or avionics upgrades you add to an F, it is still an F and won't get J prices in the market even if it is as fast as a J.  That may or may not be a concern...  

 

Having said, that, I'm glad I BLEW my original budget and stretched to get my J.  It meant a longer term loan and more money spent on interest, but at the time it seemed like a good trade-off to get the one I did.  It was very well equipped and cared-for, and flying regularly for several years before I bought it.  I've continued upgrading and maintaining it, and I'm still happy as can be.  If I had stuck with my original plan and gotten a modified E or F at $20k less, I suspect I might have a case of wandering eyes today.  

 

If I had to guess from the little bit of info with the original post, kevmor is primarily concerned with speed.  Nothing wrong with that of course, and that is what brought many of us into the Mooney world to begin with.  Perhaps with this discussion we'll pry some more info from him and see what else is important to him...such as having a fully modernized panel with a 6-pack layout (or glass PFD!) and a pair of WAAS navigators coupled to a modern autopilot, or just having an efficient and frugal XC bird that can fly old-school IFR primarily by hand.  Finding a fully modernized E or F is much harder to do as many of them will only be on the market during an estate sale.  

[gregwatts]

Having owned a 68 C.....then a 71 F(201 clone) with M 20 Turbo.......then a 76 F.....and now an 81 J model, I would stretch for the J model. I would not get anything with a 3 blade prop.

I had the wingtips on my C model and the 71 F and now the J model. I love them...they look good and I believe they add to stability. I cant say if they add speed.

A stock 76 F is damn near a 77 J model.....about $20K less and about 10 knots slower. I do prefer the push-pull as opposed to the throttle quadrant( in the 77 J).

I would decide first what your mission is.....then your budget......then your needs vs wants, and go from there.

 

 

My opinion only!

[aaronk25]

I love my 77 j it smokes!!!! 164kts full throttle 2700 at 4000 150rop don't fly that way but it will do it. 153-158kts at 9.2-10gph lop for cruise or 8.2gph at 148-149kts at 8000ft.

Keep in mind no step and I've spent some bucks rigging and removing antennas and have 1 piece belly, gami injectors and jpi 830 so I don't cook the cylinder heads. Was about 6 kts slower when I bought it.

They're all good planes and I'd be happy to own any of them. Mooneys are wonderful airplanes. 5-10kts dosent make or break the day.

[scottfromiowa]

In my experience, a really clean well flown E or F with speed mods will out-climb my J, and the cruise TAS is not all that different. My J has all the major speed mods, a LoPresti cowl, PowerFlow exhaust system. recent paint that is kept well polished, the "Top Prop" two bladed propeller, flow matched cylinders, (but too many antennas), and a one piece belly pan, and yet one of our forum members who owns a very clean E model with a 201 windshield, one piece belly pan, and modified cowl will beat me every time in a typical 75 -100 mile two aircraft fly-out. The E has a 3 bladed prop which helps him enormously in climb, and also allows him to keep his speed up closer to the destination airport as that 3 bladed prop really slows him down when he wants to join the pattern. Even though I have speed brakes and use them, it takes me longer to lose speed. Yes, I can fly marginally faster in cruise - 158 to160 Kts TAS (depending on temperature) at 8500' using the LoPresti ram air system, 2550 RPM, and moderately LOP. If I run ROP, the speed barely changes, (perhaps an increase of two Knots), but the fuel flow increases by several GPH. I think playing with optimum altitudes for winds aloft makes more of a difference than relative speed. He generally chooses to fly at lower altitudes than I like, and my slower rate of climb means I am spending time climbing while he is already in cruise. The speed I pickup descending doesn't make up for this, and therefore our block times are close, but with him being first every time. Good fun, and I keep trying to catch him, but his lighter, less draggy, modified E is a great plane. Now if I still had my modified K, and the distances were longer, it would be an entirely different story.

High praise coming from my personal favorite Mooney airframe. Interesting comparison regarding a three blade climb performance. Wait, but not to long for a J with removable and folding rear seats. (82 on up). Then slowly transform as money allows to look like Bennett's bird. Prices are fantastic right now to join the J-club. Won't last forever

[mschmuff]

A lot of good info here!! I opt'd for the "F" because it does 90% of what a "J" does for far less money.  I was lucky to find one with a good auto pilot with alt hold and an HSI.    Those are things that are just too cost prohibitive to install after the fact. Dual glideslopes and a 696 with Wx I fly hard IFR all the time.  Maintenance for the "F" as others have mentioned is less than a "J".  I agree that I often look to upgrade but having a good "F" I would never look at spending $40K more to get a "J".  I look at spending $80K - $100K more and getting an Eagle or old Ovation......Then I wake up!!

I also agree 100% with it depends on your mission.  I use mine 90% of the time to commute to work, it's typically a 40-48 minute flight depending on winds.  An extra 10kts buys me very - very little.  Now when I use it to go on vacation and fly to FL those extra 10kts would be great.....but 10% of the time for $40K isn't worth it!!  Again - that is my mission yours may be completely different.

 

********If I can give one piece of advice, when looking at a plane to purchase the first thing you want to do is see how many hours it has flown in the last 5 years....simple to do, just write down the hobbs for each annual and do the math.  With the current state of the economy and fuel prices a ton a airplanes have been sitting around.  They have been moved from hangars to tie downs to save money......If it doesn't fly - it corrodes!!

 

Good luck!!

[FloridaMan]

I'm surprised I didn't post here yet. I have a '67F with the LoPresti cowling, powerflow exhaust, GAMIs, 201 glass, GNS530 (not WAAS) couple to an HSI, all courtesy of the previous owner. I'm 158kts true at 10GPH at cruise (2450 RPM, 75 ROP, 8000ft)

 

If you're in FL, I'll take you up and let you see for yourself. 

[KSMooniac]

Hugo, that is J speed/fuel flow and I'm guessing you didn't pay the going rate for a J... so bravo!  Do you have pics posted?

[carusoam]

Lopresti was a sharp guy!

Best regards,

-a-

[CajunMooneyguy]

Hey guys.....first post. I bought a '67 M20F last week and love it. It has the wing root fillets, tail fairings, gap seals, wing tips with internal antennas, one piece windshield, lower cowl closure, wing and flap hinge fairings, cleaned up IFR "T" panel, and a 3 bladed prop. Manual gear. It's a joy to fly and already have 11 hours on it. Getting 156 kts at 5500ft. 25/2500, power boost on. Smooth air. 10.2 gph. My question to anybody that cares to comment is........ I've heard that the 2 bladed prop is better in most every area than the three bladed. I love the looks of the three bladed, but is that the only advantage? Should I consider a two bladed? Top prop? Can anyone outline the pros and cons of both? Is there a market for my 3 blade? Thanks in advance! Todd

[Jamie]

No prop advice, just saying 'congrats!' on the new mooney.

 

(Also, green with envy... the weather sucks here often enough I'm still trying to get the 10 hours instruction for the insurance requirement.)

[gregwatts]

The 3 blade is better in the climb. You can buy a two blade.....but I believe it will be north of $9K

[scottfromiowa]

I'm surprised I didn't post here yet. I have a '67F with the LoPresti cowling, powerflow exhaust, GAMIs, 201 glass, GNS530 (not WAAS) couple to an HSI, all courtesy of the previous owner. I'm 158kts true at 10GPH at cruise (2450 RPM, 75 ROP, 8000ft)

 

If you're in FL, I'll take you up and let you see for yourself. 

Watch him if you go up with him.....if you are a nazi that is....

[scottfromiowa]

Hey guys.....first post. I bought a '67 M20F last week and love it. It has the wing root fillets, tail fairings, gap seals, wing tips with internal antennas, one piece windshield, lower cowl closure, wing and flap hinge fairings, cleaned up IFR "T" panel, and a 3 bladed prop. Manual gear. It's a joy to fly and already have 11 hours on it. Getting 156 kts at 5500ft. 25/2500, power boost on. Smooth air. 10.2 gph. My question to anybody that cares to comment is........ I've heard that the 2 bladed prop is better in most every area than the three bladed. I love the looks of the three bladed, but is that the only advantage? Should I consider a two bladed? Top prop? Can anyone outline the pros and cons of both? Is there a market for my 3 blade? Thanks in advance! Todd

I will give you $100 for your pos 3-blade. Everyone hates them and I am sure your F will go 200 knots while in climb with a 2-blade. Pm me where to send the cash...

[Hank]

Many people disparage the 3-blade prop, just like many say Mooneys are too small.

 

My C with a 3-blade, 201 windshield and wingtips makes book speed, has no vibration, clears the trees at both ends of our 3000' runway, and still won't drop like a rock. Going full prop after descending, leveling off and reducing power does help slow down, though, on those occasions when I need to not run over someone in front of me.