How many cheaters are there?

[Mcstealth]

Talked to a pilot friend of mine that I knew was on a cross country the other day. Knowing it to be overcast at the start of his trip I let him know how low the celings were on his route. He said he cheated and got on top. I know this pilot is in the middle of his IR traing but not finished, and I take it to believe in his statement that he used his new learned skills to take off and climb above the tops of the overcast. I didn't ask that specifically because I didn't want to know. I for one am not that brave knowing my limited experience but it made me wonder how many pilots decide to take that action.

 

Just thinking out loud and NO, it wasn't me.

 

David

[Hank]

When the layer was broken, I started looking to either get under it or land. Only got stuck once, found a hole above forgiving terrain in Lynchburg, VA, spiraled down and very happily landed short in Roanoke. Went back to fetch the plane the next weekend when weather was better. Landed short on two long XC trips, had an unexpected early lunch at a neat restaurant; turning final watching people go in/out of Walmart before touching down below the tops of the corn was different, too.

 

Taking off into yuck when I didn't know it was getting better ahead, and I could safely fly below it until then? Nope. I'm a coward, and I like my life too much. It's not much, but it's the only one I have . . . . .

[gregwatts]

Unfortunately, there are too many pilots that do this. Some get away with it.....some we have to read about. I am sure we will be reading about this "friend" before too long. Inadvertant entry into IMC is a major cause of fatalities. His deliberate action.....only goes to demonstrate his judgement and decision making abilities. I think you should bitch slap your friend and tell him that he is a danger to the other fliers out there following the rules.

[201er]

The attitude is scarier than the act... someone who thinks they can get away with one thing will apply that thinking to other things until it is his final.

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/8314-forrest-gump-had-it-right

 

Then there was that lancair in texas. Then there was that Cherokee solo student in Florida. Then there was that nutjob that took off into 300 overcast without any instrument training. I keep reading a lot of NTSB reports or magazine articles about these kinds of things. What's your friend's name so I can look out for it?

[Rwsavory]

I don't think this kind of thing is common among actual IFR rated pilots.  Your friend needs to get an attitude adjustment, or we will be reading about him, and his unfortunate passengers, in an NTSB report.  I hope he gets caught, and busted, before he hurts someone.

[omega708]

Definitely a dangerous attitude.  I'm working on my instrument rating but would not even consider entering actual without my instructor present.  If we were flying in actual and my instructor were to become some how incapacitated, I believe that with the grace of God and a strong helping hand from ATC that I would be able to either shoot an approach into a nice sized airport or navigate to VFR conditions.  Regardless of that perceived ability, it would require the immediate declaration of an emergency on my part.  (Climb, Confess, Communicate, Comply....)

 

While working on my private certificate my instructor (CFII) and I took off on a short cross country with a scattered sky and VFR conditions at our destination.  Did a touch-and-go at the destination and headed home. By the time we got back to our home airport area (less than 60 minutes) the scattered sky had turned to an overcast layer at about 1200 AGL, with tops at about 4000.  We called for a pop-up clearance and shot the ILS back into our home airport.  Due to the thickness of the layer and the specific approach we were flying, we were in the soup for about 20 minutes before breaking out on final.  That experience gave me a lot of well deserved respect for clouds and I think it would be good for every new student to have some time in actual with an experienced CFII prior to being turned loose with a fresh certificate in their pocket.

[BorealOne]

Even if we assume that your friend has preternatural gifts in IMC, the sky isn't big enough, especially in these days of GPS direct, to assume that there isn't another aircraft out there in the clag.

 

IMC flight is hard enough without having to worry about VFR guys being where they shouldn't, and we can't assume that Centre is going to be able to sort it out, especially if there isn't radar coverage, the 'cheater' isn't on frequency, or has turned off their transponder "so they don't get caught".

 

Midair collisions, although rare, do occur - with consequences.

 

I hope your buddy gets busted before his--or someone else's--luck runs out.

[David Mazer]

A recent AOPA report noted that 1/2 of all weather related accidents are VFR pilots into IMC and usually the results are fatal.  Your friend is taking a huge risk.

[scottfromiowa]

When the layer was broken, I started looking to either get under it or land. Only got stuck once, found a hole above forgiving terrain in Lynchburg, VA, spiraled down and very happily landed short in Roanoke. Went back to fetch the plane the next weekend when weather was better. Landed short on two long XC trips, had an unexpected early lunch at a neat restaurant; turning final watching people go in/out of Walmart before touching down below the tops of the corn was different, too.

 

Taking off into yuck when I didn't know it was getting better ahead, and I could safely fly below it until then? Nope. I'm a coward, and I like my life too much. It's not much, but it's the only one I have . . . . .

You own a vintage Mooney my man...you are indeed living the good life.

[Jeff_S]

Of course, anyone who has knowingly done this on purpose wouldn't be stupid enough to admit such a thing in a public forum, where one's identity and tail number are easily discovered by any FAA lurkers.

 

I do recall being on one trip (I wasn't the one flying nor was it my airplane) where we were escaping out the trailing edge of a cold front that had brought clouds and rain to Atlanta. We were headed to Alabama and it was VFR or MVFR all along the route, and even though we are both IFR rated we didn't want to fly in those clouds or deal with Hartsfield diversions so we just took off. We legitimately dodged clouds and tried to stay the required 500 feet below them, but found ourselves at one point in a vaporous "box canyon" where we didn't want to go any lower. With moving map terrain avoidance and PCAS traffic detection, the PIC decided to plow ahead because he suspected it would only last for a mile or two and he was right...we broke out into clear skies. Not the smartest thing, for sure, but a calculated risk with suitable equipment and knowledge/experience flying in the clouds.

 

Don't know whether or not he ever filed an ASRS report.

[201er]

Does that make the other 1/2 of all weather related accidents IFR pilots into IMC? Now there is a meaningful statistic!

Jim

The other 50% is the sum of thunderstorms, turbulence, icing, and improper instrument flying technique. An interesting fact based on those statistics is that an IFR pilot has double the chances of surviving an accident resultant on icing than a VFR pilot flying into IMC. Not gonna go try it.

 

Anyway, I posted a bit about this over here: http://mooneyspace.com/topic/8314-forrest-gump-had-it-right/page-4#entry90052

[David Mazer]

You might want to review this article:

 

http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/sp9607.html

[ProprAire]

Aaargh, we need to police ourselves, i.e., become a mentor to the offender before something terrible happens.

[FloridaMan]

Seriously, f- those guys. And anyone who does this. I took off from KDED a couple months ago. It was 900 ft overcast. Solid overcast. I had a release time and a void time since we didn't have a tower on the field and I couldn't reach the radio service on the ground. I finished my runup and pull up to the hold short of runway 5. Just then, I hear a foreign accent on a VOR approach for 23. WTF!? Ok, so I wait, and wait, and wait; they go missed and I see him cross overhead. I get out at the last minute before my void time and climb through 3000 ft of solid overcast while establishing communication. Then I hear, "Center, this is Skyhawk 12345 just off of Deland requesting flight following." There is no way that guy could have been legal for VFR. There were no holes and it was thick. It wouldn't bother me so much except that these guys were willfully maneuvering around in IMC in the vicinity of a relatively busy uncontrolled field with IFR traffic. 

 

It's one thing to be VFR, encounter some rain and have a cloud settle on top of you and to get out of it quickly; it's something else to willfully violate things in a manner that create a safety hazard. 

 

I will also add that it's all well and good to trust your instruments as you're taught until you get a case of the leans and your senses aren't just not giving you any cues, but actively telling you that you're in a steel spiral when you're straight and level. From that AOPA report of the Cirrus accident, I would be almost certain that's what the pilot experienced. 

[David Mazer]

While I appreciate your feelings Antares, their accidents result in increased restrictions for the rest of us.  Our beloved government is looking for every opportunity to control us, especially the evil pilots.  We don't benefit by giving the government ammunition.  Further, I don't believe the passengers involved deserve the fates they have gotten.  Especially, children and friends of children as happened in the Cirrus accident you referenced.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Last year, IMC at 8000' in mostly solid clouds, but with occasional breaks so I could see the clouds extended up and down several thousand feet, ATC called traffic at 7500' VFR, opposite direction.  It happened to be a Bonanza.    I "expressed doubt" that anyone was legal VFR in the area.   But ATC can't see the clouds, they do not know who is lying, tho they must have a strong hunch now and then.

 

In spite of the heat this "cheater" topic generates, the bigger risk is...ourselves.   There are just about zero mid-air collisions in IMC, filed IFR plan or not.  But there are plenty of VFR into IMC accidents happening to individual airplanes.   And too many of us on IFR plans manage to end up as CFIT statistics when, if we adhered to the flight plan, that could not happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[201er]

Good points. Also consider the fact that midairs tend to happen near-exclusively in VMC.

[RJBrown]

A few years ago I was flying my wife and son to Heber Utah to get their Scuba certifications at Homestead crater. When we arrived there were 2 planes flying around. A private jet on an IFR clearance and myself VFR with flight following. We both decided the fog in the valley was too thick to even attempt an approach. Just as I decided to head over the hill to u42 a plane poped up through the fog. He was not on with center and had no clearance. Had we chose to get a clearance and shoot the approach we could have had a head on collision with this Idiot. He knew the layer was thin and low and could get out but he had no idea there were two of us thinking about landing. This kind of flying puts you somewhere you are not expected to be. This was a non radar environment. His illegal take off could be fatal to someone landing legally.

[kerry]

Depending how thick the layer is he probably could have gotten MVFR clearance.  That way he would have been legal.

[201er]

BTW, it might be worth changing the term "inadvertent flight into IMC" to "inadvertent flight into AIC." Kennedy Jr crashed in visual meteorological conditions but the trouble he encountered was the inability to maintain control in actual instrument conditions. Although instrument flight in actual instrument conditions in visual meteorological conditions is legal for the non-instrument rated pilot... it is damn stupid. After flying a lot of IFR this last year, I've gotta say that staring into pitch black night VMC between layers is more disconcerting than being in the clouds!

[RJBrown]

BTW, it might be worth changing the term "inadvertent flight into IMC" to "inadvertent flight into AIC." Kennedy Jr crashed in visual meteorological conditions but the trouble he encountered was the inability to maintain control in actual instrument conditions. Although instrument flight in actual instrument conditions in visual meteorological conditions is legal for the non-instrument rated pilot... it is damn stupid. After flying a lot of IFR this last year, I've gotta say that staring into pitch black night VMC between layers is more disconcerting than being in the clouds!

Toughest IAC I ever flew was 3AM on a moonless and cloudless night heading east over the flatlands from Denver. The auto pilot quit that morning. Stars in the sky looked just like the farm houses on the ground. Cranked up the lights and flew the gauges till the sun came up. Toughest flight ever!

[FloridaMan]

While I appreciate your feelings Antares, their accidents result in increased restrictions for the rest of us.  Our beloved government is looking for every opportunity to control us, especially the evil pilots.  We don't benefit by giving the government ammunition.  Further, I don't believe the passengers involved deserve the fates they have gotten.  Especially, children and friends of children as happened in the Cirrus accident you referenced.

 

I think that you misinterpreted what I was saying. I meant that those people who willingly enter IMC without clearance/release/flight plan put others at risk, willingly. The system, as it stands, provides us with safety and the infrastructure supports us. There is no reason to not use what's available. 

[Oscar Avalle]

Around where I am now there are many cheaters. One reason is simply that radar coverage is not that great and traffic rather scarce... So even in bad weather many pilots simply don't bother to file IFR but remain on a VFR plan (which allows them to fly lower given that the MEA are rather high (>10000). For example I was in solid IFR on an instrument flight plan at 12k and I hear that a part 135 operator was approaching me from the opposite direction on a scheduled flight at 11.5K! Luckily I was able to see him on my PCAS and that gave me some piece of mind... I asked a friend of mine if that was normal, and he said basically yes. At least he had his transponder switched on.

 

In addition in this part of the world you also have a significant number of planes that fly around without their transponder switched on...and of course without a flight plan...at least an official one... I was flying the other day at 10 k and  suddenly I see out of nowhere a Pilatus overtaking me and then going down into the clouds... No PCAS, I called ATC and asked them if they had seen him (of course not...).

 

So those are some of the interesting experiences you get from flying in the tropics.

[aviatoreb]

A few years ago I was flying my wife and son to Heber Utah to get their Scuba certifications at Homestead crater. When we arrived there were 2 planes flying around. A private jet on an IFR clearance and myself VFR with flight following. We both decided the fog in the valley was too thick to even attempt an approach. Just as I decided to head over the hill to u42 a plane poped up through the fog. He was not on with center and had no clearance. Had we chose to get a clearance and shoot the approach we could have had a head on collision with this Idiot. He knew the layer was thin and low and could get out but he had no idea there were two of us thinking about landing. This kind of flying puts you somewhere you are not expected to be. This was a non radar environment. His illegal take off could be fatal to someone landing legally.

 

On a related note - a reminder to all and to myself (your not jut reminded me RJ so this is not specifically for you at all) - even if everyone is legal there is a possible conflict that is easy to cover: remember that when on an IFR flight plan into a nontowered airport to listen to UNICOM on the way in 10+ miles out on the second radio, esp if there are VFR conditions below the layer on the way in so as no one is surprised by a legal VFR doing touch and go or something while listening to the ATC on the other radio.

[aviatoreb]

Around where I am now there are many cheaters. One reason is simply that radar coverage is not that great and traffic rather scarce... So even in bad weather many pilots simply don't bother to file IFR but remain on a VFR plan (which allows them to fly lower given that the MEA are rather high (>10000). For example I was in solid IFR on an instrument flight plan at 12k and I hear that a part 135 operator was approaching me from the opposite direction on a scheduled flight at 11.5K! Luckily I was able to see him on my PCAS and that gave me some piece of mind... I asked a friend of mine if that was normal, and he said basically yes. At least he had his transponder switched on.

 

In addition in this part of the world you also have a significant number of planes that fly around without their transponder switched on...and of course without a flight plan...at least an official one... I was flying the other day at 10 k and  suddenly I see out of nowhere a Pilatus overtaking me and then going down into the clouds... No PCAS, I called ATC and asked them if they had seen him (of course not...).

 

So those are some of the interesting experiences you get from flying in the tropics.

 

Ugh - what's up with the Pilatus drivers?  I would have thought that those higher end airplane drivers would live to an even more professional standard?  I had an unpleasant experience with a Pilatus driver last summer - from my home airport a Pilatus was just starting up engine as I was taxiing to rwy 24 which the mild winds favored - but slightly longer taxi.  They (two pilots) saw me go that way as we were parked near each other.  I radioed my intentions the whole way as usual.  Did my run up announced I was taking the runway and just the my tcas beeps - there goes the Pilatus on Rwy 6 on take off roll - no radio announce - nothing - rolling in the opposite direction - I think they took my radio announcement as a race to beat me to the line.  10 more seconds and I would have been on the runway pointing right at them.  But they were listening I am sure and they knew that.