How often does a pre-buy fail to catch something major?

[Jamie]

I've been doing a lot of reading to prepare for my first airplane purchase. I have all the usual stuff either figured out or in place (training, hangar, budget, etc.)

One thing, more than any other, continues to bother me. What are the odds that a pre purchase inspection will miss something major?

I know there will be a (probably negotiable) list of things to fix found during the pre-buy, and the conventional wisdom seems to be that more stuff will become apparent after getting the airplane home and during the first annual. But I'm talking about the Big Surprises (>10 AMU or even Huge Surprises (like, something is found which essentially loses your entire investment due to the amount required to make the plane air worthy again.)

I found a web site (I forget where) that listed several buyer horror stories. The one that stands out was where the push rods had holes rusted through which had been "repaired" (hidden) using bondo and then painted over. How do you find that in a day or half a day inspection?? Yikes.

I know there are less than honest people selling less than perfect aircraft. Can a competent mechanic and a reasonable pre-buy effectively detect these?

-- jamie

[Cruiser]

No.

If people are going to be dis-honest many things can be hidden.

Your best efforts would be to find a Mooney MSC that has a good reputation for quality work.

Most pre-buys follow a check list and the MSC uses their experience to look for, identify and evaluate an airplane. Of course mistakes can happen. Depend on the knowledge and experience of the experts.

[BigTex]

I purchased my plane in June and I'm up to about $4k if fixes. And that's coming out a pre-buy done by Don Maxwell. This is pretty common. Most folks say you'll need to set aside 10-20% purchase price to fix stuff. So you need to expect that items will be missed so budget/plan accordingly.

[gregwatts]

There are horror stories out there......but the best you can do is excercise due diligence in your purchase. Start with the seller.......do they seem shady or trustworthy? Make an annual inspection part of the pre- purchase inspection. There are some very reputable and trusted maintenance shops out there.....even if you have to travel a little bit.

Some think only an MSC should work on a Mooney......I am not one of them.........but I do have a mechanic that I trust completely and knows Mooneys inside out.

Excercise common sense............if something don't look right, look again!

Good luck........owning your own plane is the greatest feeling!

My opinion only!

[FBCK]

I had a pre purchase done three years ago when I purchased my Mooney, I asked the MSC to check the tanks, the shock disc and the trim system specifically. All came back 100 percent, over the past two years I have had to replace all at the expense of 15k, in addition the oxygen tank was timed out, another 3k. I don't know what they looked at in the 6hours I was bill for the inspection, but I clearly got nothing for it. Would I have one done again, yes, I would just look for a shop that knew what the hell they where doing, just because it's an Mooney Service Centre means very little.

[PilotDerek]

I think of a pre-buy like a home inspection. It's all dependant on the inspector. The mech I had do a couple pre-buys started off his post brief's to me with "no plane is perfect". The plans I was looking at were 40+ years old. Try to find something not wrong with a 40 year old plane, car, or house. Just look at all the posts, something is always acting quirky or needs repair. This sounds negative and I do not mean it that way. Owning a plane is awesome, but you have to be prepared for the repairs because they will be needed. Good luck.

[WardHolbrook]

Think of it this way, buying a used airplane is just like buying a used car - regardless of how careful and conscientious you are throughout the entire process, there is still a chance that something can slip by or develop in a "clean" airplane after the purchase process is completed. After all, you're talking about the purchase of a USED piece of complex machinery. All you can really do is stack the odds in your favor. Find someone to do the prebuy who has your best interests at heart. Then, when you've done all of the "due diligence" you'll want to set aside an amount equal to 5% to 10% of the purchase price to cover the inevitable "surprises" that will pop up after the purchase.

Over the years, I've owned my share of aircraft, from gliders to classic tail-draggers, to pressurized piston twins. I've also been involved in the purchase negotiations for several others including a few business jets. Here's what I've learned...

1. Never, ever trust a seller or his mechanic. It’s not about honesty, it’s just that they might not be telling you the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth if you get my drift. Like President Reagan said, “Trust, but verify.”

2. All but the minimum amount of absolutely necessary maintenance ceases once the decision to sell has been made, if not earlier.

3. A good trustworthy mechanic is worth his weight in gold. Pay him whatever it takes to keep him.

4. Pay whatever it takes to get a good non-biased evaluation. If you're lucky, you pay good money to confirm what the seller was telling you. If you're really lucky, you'll find out that the airplane has problems and should be passed on. Either way, it's money well spent.

5. Run away from a recent field overhauled engine. They can be very high quality, but if they did a cheapo overhaul on a runout engine just to make it easier to sell the chances are very great that you’ll end up with problems. Remember, you generally get exactly what you pay for and you'll eventually pay for a factory remanufactured (or equivalent quality) engine whether you get one or not. Either up front, or over the course of time due to unscheduled maintenance, downtime, etc.

Of course there will be exceptions to the above five items. If you've been on the receiving end of one of the exceptions - good on ya. You're very lucky. The rest of us, don't count on it.

[N601RX]

Here are the 3 of the larger risk.

Undetected airframe corrosion or bad repairs, which if they remove all the panels and know where to look should not be a problem.

Tanks leak when filled completely, Some people don't fill their tanks up for a reason.

Internal engine corrosion. Not always found till a couple of hundred hrs later.

[scottfromiowa]

Engine, engine, ENGINE. If the plane has been flown regularly and the logbooks show this (BARE MINIMUM of 50-75 hours/year) this largest of the large bill-Major overhaul will be "less likely" to occur. $28AMU's for an overhaul...Make sure the overhaul was by a competent shop...and did they overhaul the exhaust/mags/harness/hoses/oil cooler/engine mount/prop at the same time? If no discount or expect problems. SB208 for tube corrosion...that means PULLING THE INTERIOR. If not in logs you need to see the tubes and the insulation BEFORE buying the plane. Mooney tanks leak-that's maintenance-same with shock discs. Corrosion in wings and tail are easy to spot. If it has lived on the coast CHECK IT CLOSE. Owning an airplane WILL be top five on your list of accomplishments/Joys. Having due diligence in your selection will minimize the pain that IS part of aircraft ownership...'cause you want to have some $ for the fun decisions like GPS, Engine Monitors, Headsets and shades. Have fun, but Caviot Emptor.

[Becca]

I was told by several airplane owners to budget a $5-10k start up "transient" to get an airplane the way you want it and fix unexpected bugs after purchase, and that was almost exactly our startup transient.

As for prebuy. We had what we thought was both a thorough annual from the dealer and a thorough prebuy by a recommended Mooney mechanic in the local Houston area. We even had pre-buy guy pull a cylinder to look at the cam. 200 hrs later, we had cam spalling and the cylinder he had supposedly pulled was pretty pitted - don't tell me he didn't see that? Thus, an overhaul. Likewise, when we went to pick up the plane from the prebuy mechanic the alternator was dead, though we had already purchased plane. We were like, how did you not see that during the prebuy? Apparently he didn't actually run the plane during the prebuy (it flew in, right?). Of course, now that it was stuck on his ramp, he'd be happy to fix it, 6 hrs of labor later (when I asked him for a labor estimate he said "honey how many stars are there in teh sky"), he installed a new alternator, which then promptly failed in flight due to arcing because he didn't tighten the contacts and we installed the replacement at which point we discovered it was a 1-2 hr job for a novice. Anyway, next time we will be physically present for the entire prebuy.

Also on the engine subject, make sure the plane has flown on the oil that's in it on prebuy, no fresh oil change, and get a sample out for analysis.

[jetdriven]

I was told by several airplane owners to budget a $5-10k start up "transient" to get an airplane the way you want it and fix unexpected bugs after purchase, and that was almost exactly our startup transient.

As for prebuy. We had what we thought was both a thorough annual from the dealer and a thorough prebuy by a recommended Mooney mechanic in the local Houston area. We even had pre-buy guy pull a cylinder to look at the cam. 200 hrs later, we had cam spalling and the cylinder he had supposedly pulled was pretty pitted - don't tell me he didn't see that? Thus, an overhaul. Likewise, when we went to pick up the plane from the prebuy mechanic the alternator was dead, though we had already purchased plane. We were like, how did you not see that during the prebuy? Apparently he didn't actually run the plane during the prebuy (it flew in, right?). Of course, now that it was stuck on his ramp, he'd be happy to fix it, 6 hrs of labor later (when I asked him for a labor estimate he said "honey how many stars are there in teh sky"), he installed a new alternator, which then promptly failed in flight due to arcing because he didn't tighten the contacts and we installed the replacement at which point we discovered it was a 1-2 hr job for a novice. Anyway, next time we will be physically present for the entire prebuy.

Also on the engine subject, make sure the plane has flown on the oil that's in it on prebuy, no fresh oil change, and get a sample out for analysis.

Don't forget the 4 hours labor for rigging the ailerons with travel boards (set to 4 degrees up, or 4 degrees out of tolerance), the broken interior plastic panels, the pulled wire from the autopilot sonalert, the pilot seat not in the seat tracks, the broken cowl flap link, the misajusted altimeter, the broken static line at the port in the tail, etc.

We know Mooneys pretty well now and can do our own prebuy with the assitance of our shop. However, for a first time buyer, if it doesnt go to Maxwell, Dugosh, LASAR, Top Gun, or equivalent, I wouldnt have tons of confidence that you would catch everything.

[DaV8or]

If you take the plane to a reputable MSC (ask here and one will be recommended for your area) you will likely have no big gottchas with regards to the airframe. All bets are off with regards to the engine no matter who does the pre buy. Like others have said, lots of recent, documented flight time is more valuable than low hours on the engine. I would plan on changing the oil filter and cutting it open. If you're really nervous about the engine, you can pay (with the owner's permission) to have cylinder removed and have a look at the camshaft, followers, piston, wrist pin, cylinder walls, valves and the inside of the crankcase and get a pretty good idea, but still not a 100% guarantee. Having this done will about double the cost of the pre buy. If the owner can document that there have been religious oil changes and they used Camguard, or at least something like AeroShell plus, maybe you rest a little easier.

Bottom line is, if you use a good MSC, you'll be way ahead of the game. I personally would worry too much about the airframe, they will catch all the common Mooney issues and deal killers. The engine is the place you're most likely to be surprised with in the future, but this is the case no matter what. If you're not prepared to buy a new engine on day one of ownership, you might reconsider owning. IMO, aircraft engines are the real spin of the roulette wheel in ownership. Apparently, there isn't much anybody can do about it either. The only common advise you will hear everywhere, is fly the plane a lot and motor should be fine. Unfortunately, this is often not possible for many aircraft owners.

[KSMooniac]

Great advice above. The intangible part of the equation is to understand that you're buying "the seller" as much as the plane, so you need to feel him/her/them out as best you can and get a sense of how well they maintained the plane and how often it flew. Then verify, as Ward stated above. There ARE great planes out there, but you need to be prepared to pounce when you find one as they still sell quickly, and for good money.

My plane was essentially turn-key, aside from selective items and improvements I chose to add over the first year. It had some tank seeps when I bought it (known) but they got worse and in year 2 I elected to get the full meal deal from Weep No More. In year 3 I had low compressions on two jugs and opted to IRAN all 4 just to baseline them and (hopefully) finish a run to overhaul. I've had plenty of other maintenance items and upgrades over the last (almost) 6 years and wouldn't trade for anything!

The biggest things to check are corrosion in the steel tubes and inside the wing/fuselage, shock disk condition, fuel tank status, and for lack of anything really specific, just the overall "feel" of the plane, as evaluated by an experienced Mooney guy. A flight with someone like Maxwell will reveal all sorts of evidence of the overall condition...ie if it is well-lubed the controls should feel "right." If the previous owner didn't bother to keep it lubed (easy and cheap!), then what else did they skimp on? The shock discs are easy to evaluate, and if they let them slide way too long, then again, what else did they skip? Corrosion should be checked first as it can be a show stopper and eliminate the need to continue with a PPI. Tanks are expensive, but can be inspected. Review the logs and see if it has been flying steadily and undergoing continuous maintenance, or if it just has generic entries for the annuals with only a couple dozen hours in between...

[Jamie]

Thanks! This is just what I was looking for. I've incorporated bits from everyone into the PPI checklist. I hadn't considered the extra 10-20%, but will add that to the budget.

I'm beginning to wonder if I should start looking for a plane with an engine at or very near TBO and have it done myself right after purchase. At least I start with a known quantity.

Again, y'all are great. I've been lurking here for months after the decision to go "mooney" was made. I've learned a lot just by listening. But now I'm on "final" for getting a plane. The Hunt begins. I hope to have something by next spring or thereabouts. Which means I'll probably have more n00b questions.

[PilotDerek]

What Mooney are you shopping for?

[gregwatts]

I would first decide your mission.....then decide your budget.........then decide your priorities ( such as GPS, auto-pilot, NDH, etc.) then start looking at options. You may have to wait awhile for the plane meeting your requirements to come on the market. I would find the plane that has everything you want...already done to it. The market is in your favor right now........find the plane you want and make your move!

My opinion only!

[Jamie]

What Mooney are you shopping for?

M20J, as recent as I can afford. I don't much care if it has the latest and greatest GPS in it (though that would be nice). Even after I get my instrument rating I'm unlikely to actually fly in IMC. Other than that, I want what everyone wants I guess... great paint / interior, modern panel, fresh factory overhaul. In blue or red.

I have a couple of mission profiles. A mooney gets me to my parents in 1:30. Orlando FL is a little over 3:00. Destin is 2:00ish, etc. Those I'd fly multiple times a year. Other than that, well.... several people on here have mentioned cool places to go east of the Rockies.

I have the money saved up. Won't be financing, so I'm ready to pounce when the right plane comes along. But I'm in no particular hurry, if that makes sense. End of january, I'm going to go ahead and rent a hangar so I'll have a place to put it.

I've wanted my own plane for almost 30 years. It's time. Some nights, it's hard to get to sleep just thinking about what I'll do when I have it. Anyone else ever get like that?

[Freight Dog]

I've wanted my own plane for almost 30 years. It's time. Some nights, it's hard to get to sleep just thinking about what I'll do when I have it. Anyone else ever get like that?

Yessir, and I finally pulled the trigger and bought my M20E. I second Don Maxwell for doing a prebuy. Very thorough.

[Jamie]

I second Don Maxwell for doing a prebuy. Very thorough.

I need to get a list of recommended MSCs / A&Ps together and plot 'em on a map for reference when shopping. Has anyone done that yet?

[chrisk]

My advice is to spend the money on a pre-buy. Don't even think a recent annual is a substitue for one. Recently I went to buy a plane. The annual was completed in the prior 30 days and the plane had not been flow since. I test flew it for 30 minutes and took it to a shop. Two of the 6 cylinders were at 45 psi and leaking past the exhaust valves. The shop selling it offered to fix the cylinders, but I really couldn't trust them, since they missed it on the annual. I walked from the deal.

[RJBrown]

When I bought my plane I had Arapahoe Aero (local MSC) do the prebuy/annual, fix everything you can find scenario. Not one surprise thereafter. After owning it a while I decided that I really do need a turbo. My first plane was a 1980 231. It was stock for 100 hours then a Rocket for the next 800. I thought I could live with the J. The "Idea" of less expensive operating costs convinced me. The reality of 16,600' MEAs 15 miles from the house changed my mind. The plane is everything a J was meant to be, but I missed the Rocket. Tried to sell it with 1850 TT airframe and engine. You may think you want a runout but the market says NO loud and clear. Just got it back from Western Skyways, $30,000 later it is smoother than ever and on the market.

But..... stuff happens. On the flight back from Montrose the compass leaked once it was at altitude. 45 minutes after an annual something breaks. No prebuy is a guarantee. It is just the best thing we have going.

Before I bought this plane I had a TLS under contract in the Dallas area. The MSC in Denton did the prebuy with me there. We found many issues the seller would not deal with. 3 years later and after passing through the hands of All American the plane was sold. The seller would have been better off with the deal I offered but he needed time to believe the truth. N800MS is now owned by a guy on this forum who lives in Colorado. Last I heard he loves it. The prebuy had helped me find the true value of that plane. Problem was it took the seller a little longer to glimpse reality. Every plane has a value, the more knowledge you can obtain the better you can deal. Some planes may not work no matter the cost. Some planes, like 800MS, may just need all the issues dealt with to make someone a great plane.

[carusoam]

Jamie,

Byron gave you THE list in post #11 above!

Lasar, maxwell, dugosh etc....

When your investment approaches 100k, these are the key folks to visit to protect your investment the best you can...

I used maxwell.

Do your own reading of the logs as well.

Best regards,

-a-

[DaV8or]

Sounds like you're in Texas, so you're in luck. That's Mooney country. The most highly rated is Don Maxwell in Longview and Dugosh in Kerrville, but I also had a good prebuy done by SWTA in San Marcos and was very happy with them.