Rght out of the gate? Seriously???

[Matthew P]

47 minutes ago, cbarry said:

You might consider checking the vent lines on the fuel tanks for an  obstruction or partial obstruction.  With the fuel boost pump on, or at low power setting, the engine may be getting enough fuel, but at high/takeoff power  the engine driven fuel pump without the boost pump may not be sufficient if the tank vent lines are mostly obstructed.  Of course, you could look at the wing you’re drawing fuel from and watch the tank area start to collapse if the vent line is mostly obstructed.  

we don't even know if he did a fuel sample from each tank yet, that could explain things..I'm just glad they they are ok and the aircraft is ok..

[PeteMc]

16 hours ago, Freddb34 said:

While I worked on troubleshooting and getting the gear down

You weren't specific on your "troubleshooting" and I'm not sure if switching tanks was done.  I'm assuming it was done, but just wanted to confirm.  I would have thought the engine would have started back up in a couple of (looonnnggg) seconds had the issue been water or some other issue with the initial tank or feeder line.  

[cliffy]

Most if not all FBOs selling fuel drain their tank sumps every day and log that along with checking for water

in the sample. Tanks and trucks alike.

One of the items the FAA does after an accident (engine failure) is go back to the last place fuel was purchased

and check the logs and test the fuel farm system. 

Does the FBO have the tank logs that show he did the inspections? Does he do inspections?

Were the sumps  of the plane drained effectively before flight?

Have the orings on the tank caps been checked for cracks? When were they last replaced?

Have the sump plugs now been removed to drain LOTS of fuel out to check for water and not just the little fuel stick tube? USE PROPER GROUNDED FUEL BUCKETS AND NOT A PLASTIC HOME DEPOT BUCKET!!!!    Static electricity is generated by falling fuel and a plastic bucket!!!!

Have long power run ups been done to verify fuel feed integrity now? 

We have the cart before the horse here right now.

[Freddb34]

5 hours ago, PeteMc said:

You weren't specific on your "troubleshooting" and I'm not sure if switching tanks was done.  I'm assuming it was done, but just wanted to confirm.  I would have thought the engine would have started back up in a couple of (looonnnggg) seconds had the issue been water or some other issue with the initial tank or feeder line.  

No, we didn't switch tanks...since this was only my second flight, it slipped past me on the "memory items" for the Mooney.  Coming from Pipers and their easy access tank selector to the Mooney "floor based", we just didn't have time to make that flip.  We were on the ground in about 90 seconds. Lesson learned.

[Freddb34]

2 hours ago, cliffy said:

Most if not all FBOs selling fuel drain their tank sumps every day and log that along with checking for water

in the sample. Tanks and trucks alike.

One of the items the FAA does after an accident (engine failure) is go back to the last place fuel was purchased

and check the logs and test the fuel farm system. 

Does the FBO have the tank logs that show he did the inspections? Does he do inspections?

Were the sumps  of the plane drained effectively before flight?

Have the orings on the tank caps been checked for cracks? When were they last replaced?

Have the sump plugs now been removed to drain LOTS of fuel out to check for water and not just the little fuel stick tube? USE PROPER GROUNDED FUEL BUCKETS AND NOT A PLASTIC HOME DEPOT BUCKET!!!!    Static electricity is generated by falling fuel and a plastic bucket!!!!

Have long power run ups been done to verify fuel feed integrity now? 

We have the cart before the horse here right now.

Ok, a lot to unpack here.  I did go back and ask the FBO if they did checks and was told they check it each morning as part of their pre op checklist.  

Yes, we did sump the tanks after they filled the tanks and there was no water or abnormal specks in the sumps that I could see.

The AP sumped the tanks and that's when he noted the tiny, silvery specks in the sump drains BUT he did have to sump the tanks about 6 times before he saw them.  Most pilots don't sit there and sump the tanks more than 2-3 times unless they see something odd. 

The AP did remove the drain plugs and empty the tanks.  They took photos of both tanks and found the right tank clean but there were several large chunks in the left.  Chunks that wouldn't come out of the drain sump (which the logs show the seller had done).    I'm not 100% sure we were on the left tank, once again, unfamiliarity with the fuel selector BUT I do know for a fact it was not in the  OFF position.  It was selected on A tank, just not 100% certain it was left or right.  I plan to paint the top of the selector (Green towards the tank selected, Red for the tank not selected) so that I have an easy reference as to what tank I'm on.

The AP is going to pull the top panel off the tank and clean out the entire tank.  He's very confident that this will resolve any fuel pick up problems.  

[takair]

Fred…will he also check the previously mentioned screens…total 3?  They may be holding junk that just needs to work its way past the screens to cause more problems.  It is amazing how the junk gets by and then causes problems, but I have had it happen….in fact…shortly after getting bladders installed….

[Fritz1]

Curious how this plays out, take pics of fuel pickup tube when access panel is out, think this is a 1/2" tube with holes drilled into it, takes a lot of debris to clog up, glad everybody walked away and no metal was bent

[PT20J]

The fuel tank pickups are above the sumps. That’s why there is unusable fuel. It would take a lot of water in the tanks to reach the pickups in level flight. Maybe less in a steep bank. There are coarse screens on the pickups to catch big chunks. Since the mechanic looked inside the tanks (presumably with a borescope) I presume these were checked. Some aircraft require adding a fuel filter between the Dukes boost pump and the engine-driven pump per MSB20-222. 

[DCarlton]

I'll add one thing to consider.  I landed with no power several years ago after experiencing a rough running engine about 7 miles from my airport.  The engine quit making power on the downwind leg (full throttle; nothing).  We landed safely but used the entire 5000 foot runway.  My highly experienced mechanic who I trusted completely, did every troubleshooting step in the text book.  However, we did not identify an obvious cause.  After completing several successful ground runs (the engine was "running like a top"), we decided to fly together.  We flew for over an hour before the engine started running violently rough.  We had meandered about 10 miles from our airport.  We made it back to the airport and landed again ("white as a sheet").  After that incident we overhauled the engine; I was planning it eventually anyway.  The point is don't assume you've got it fixed if you have a successful ground run up and short flight.  Be careful unless you've clearly identify root cause and stay alert and be careful until you've got some time on the airplane.  

[Yetti]

What model?   Is this fuel injected or Carburetor?

"The AP is going to pull the top panel off the tank and clean out the entire tank.  He's very confident that this will resolve any fuel pick up problems. "

Check the filter at the Electric Fuel pump  and the finger screen on Fuel Servo.     This will tell you more than pulling tank panels. 

[N201MKTurbo]

If your mechanic insists on pulling panels, have him pull the bottom panels. It won’t make the top of the wing ugly.

[cliffy]

If someone resealed the tanks make sure the outlet tube SCREEN is not covered with sealant. 

I've seen this before when tanks were resealed

Once inside make sure the drain holes in the bottom of the ribs are not covered with sealant blocking

water from moving to the low point in the wing (sump area). This is also a SB from Mooney. 

[Shadrach]

I have serious doubts about water ingestion given how much water it would take to reach the pick up. The E model has about 4.5 cups of unusable fuel per tank. You would need a significant amount of water in the tank to ingest it. The IO360 will run on 20-30psi of fuel pressure, so I doubt seriously that it’s the fuel pump unless you’re seeing a major drop in fuel pressure.

So the question is, is it fuel or spark? The engine internals hardly have anything to do with the symptoms you’re experiencing so having the engine overhauled to regain trust in the power plant  is absolute overkill.

Highly unlikely that both mags failed at the same time. My bet would be that this is a fuel problem. When was the last time the fuel servo was overhauled?

[LANCECASPER]

Two days ago, minutes after paying for and picking up the airplane, he had a major failure, which could have been a catastrophe. The seller later admitted that 5 days earlier he had a similar failure. If I was the buyer I would be focusing all of my attention on getting a refund. Let the seller figure all of this out. 

[Justin Schmidt]

20 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Two days ago, minutes after paying for and picking up the airplane, he had a major failure, which could have been a catastrophe. The seller later admitted that 5 days earlier he had a similar failure. If I was the buyer I would be focusing all of my attention on getting a refund. Let the seller figure all of this out. 

While that seems great in a perfect world. We don't live in a perfect world and already the seller was less than honest if he didn't disclose that. Doubt they would even return a call now.

Legally,  it's a no go, private sales are default as is except things specifically stated in the agreement.  Good luck proving unairwortyness at the time of purchase.  Even if the seller knew it happened,  because they just have to say, we had it looked at and everything checked out, thus it was aitworthy at that point.

I would say an engine monitor is great because you can see data points like FF that can point in a direction. 

I would look at all the fuel screens, gasalator (proper function), carb/fuel servo, OH fuel distributor. Several flushes of tanks and inspecting sealant 

[LANCECASPER]

1 minute ago, Justin Schmidt said:

While that seems great in a perfect world. We don't live in a perfect world and already the seller was less than honest if he didn't disclose that. Doubt they would even return a call now.

Legally,  it's a no go, private sales are default as is except things specifically stated in the agreement.  Good luck proving unairwortyness at the time of purchase.  Even if the seller knew it happened,  because they just have to say, we had it looked at and everything checked out, thus it was aitworthy at that point.

I understand all of that, but he has witnesses to what the seller said and the window of reasoning with the seller is rapidly closing. His level of determination will make the difference and the outcome. The seller is an airline pilot and A & P and has a lot to lose, mainly his reputation. There's no way I would fly this airplane again. I would make this the seller's problem, which in my opinion it is.

[Jsno]

I would open up the top fuel tank panels.  Drain the fuel and flush with clean fuel.  Flush the entire system.  It could have been water, poorly applied slosh coat, or the tanks were not thoroughly cleaned and flushed after reseal.  Also could have water as stated in other posts.  Could be more than one thing.  Those tanks need to be surgically clean to be safe.  Also check the drains when opened.

[IvanP]

43 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I understand all of that, but he has witnesses to what the seller said and the window of reasoning with the seller is rapidly closing. His level of determination will make the difference and the outcome. The seller is an airline pilot and A & P and has a lot to lose, mainly his reputation. There's no way I would fly this airplane again. I would make this the seller's problem, which in my opinion it is.

I would concur with Lance here. Buyer should not have to spend time, money and effort to identify and remedy a defect that was arguably known to seller but not disclosed to buyer. Concealment of a known defect arguably constitutes fraud and good grounds for rescision of the sale contract if that is a remedy the byer would choose to pursue. Of course, the question is what can you prove.  

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Jsno said:

I would open up the top fuel tank panels.  Drain the fuel and flush with clean fuel.  Flush the entire system.  It could have been water, poorly applied slosh coat, or the tanks were not thoroughly cleaned and flushed after reseal.  Also could have water as stated in other posts.  Could be more than one thing.  Those tanks need to be surgically clean to be safe.  Also check the drains when opened.

The ad for the airplane on Mooneyspace in 2024 says it has bladders

[Jim Peace]

On 10/10/2025 at 9:40 AM, Freddb34 said:

Shut off the boost pump, landing light and turn down wind. 

This has nothing to do with your issue but why would you turn off the landing light?  see and be seen.....should stay on 100% of the time you are below 18,000 feet...

[Hank]

3 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

This has nothing to do with your issue but why would you turn off the landing light?  see and be seen.....should stay on 100% of the time.

This is one of the benefits of LED lights. I installed mine over 10 years ago, and can only recall the switch being turned off twice--once during annual, and once halfway through a pitot-static check.

[Slick Nick]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

This is one of the benefits of LED lights. I installed mine over 10 years ago, and can only recall the switch being turned off twice--once during annual, and once halfway through a pitot-static check.

It's bad airmanship to taxi around with it on if you're pointed in someone else's direction. 

[Skates97]

8 minutes ago, Slick Nick said:

It's bad airmanship to taxi around with it on if you're pointed in someone else's direction. 

I've never had an issue with a GA plane taxiing toward me with their landing light on. If it was a 737, that might be different. Oh, and the Cirrus guys with their strobes going all the time, that is a bit distracting.

[skykrawler]

21 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

I've never had an issue with a GA plane taxiing toward me with their landing light on. If it was a 737, that might be different. Oh, and the Cirrus guys with their strobes going all the time, that is a bit distracting.

Also, on the ground landing light on implies aircraft movement. 

[Jim Peace]

6 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

Also, on the ground landing light on implies aircraft movement. 

yes...on the ground it should only be on when aircraft is moving and not in another pilots face......but in the air it should basically stay on 100% of the time below 18,000..