What's it worth to upgrade to a Hartzell Scimitar prop?

[AndreiC]

My M20E has a 3-blade McCauley prop that's been there since I bought it. About 1500 hours on it, I think it has been through one overhaul. Runs perfectly without any issues, and has been balanced quite well by the folks at Poplar Grove.

Nevertheless, many people tell me that with a Hartzell 2-blade scimitar I would gain about 4-5 knots and also gain about 30 lbs of useful weight. And everyone says it would be much smoother. All would be nice. But of course, like everything, it costs money to do the change. 

I have the opportunity to buy a Hartzell Scimitar prop which has very few hours (have to verify, but probably less than 50), for a good price. I can probably sell my McCauley prop for $3500, more or less. With shipping two props back and forth, installation and balancing costs, and cost of a spinner, I am looking at about $7k-8k in final cost. 

My question to you: is this worth it? I plan to keep this plane for quite some time (I already have had it for 3 years, and it is right where I want it to be). Are the benefits of switching the props big enough to justify spending the money? Or should I just leave good enough be?

[EricJ]

When I bought my airplane it had a brand-new (well, 40 hours) two-blade Hartzell Scimitar.    Since I've not had any other prop on it I can't comment on differences in experience, but my cruise speed numbers compare to what most other J model owners post here, so I don't know what difference it would make.    It is supposedly quieter than some other props, and weighs a little more than the two-blade McCauley that originally came with the airplane from the factory.

What I can say is that it's been very reliable and trouble-free for the about 1000 hours that I've put on it, and it's not really showing any signs of impending issues.   Seems pretty solid to me.    The spinner it came with has the thick backing plate, so that's nice as well.

 

[Jackk]

Reading some posts on wood/composite coated and comparing to stock metal, that thing is the price of a car and I don’t think for the average leg length your block to block time will be a noticeable difference, let alone the price of a car different 

 

 The other issue, though not as much for a Mooney, is damage, it’s got a metal edge but it still won’t take FOD etc damage as well as a metal prop.

 

 Sounds like you got a good prop on it already, I’d invest that money elsewhere IMO

[AndreiC]

4 minutes ago, Jackk said:

Reading some posts on wood/composite coated and comparing to stock metal, that thing is the price of a car and I don’t think for the average leg length your block to block time will be a noticeable difference, let alone the price of a car different 

 

 The other issue, though not as much for a Mooney, is damage, it’s got a metal edge but it still won’t take FOD etc damage as well as a metal prop.

 

 Sounds like you got a good prop on it already, I’d invest that money elsewhere IMO

Maybe I wasn't clear. I am talking about upgrading my 3-blade McCauley with a **metal** Hartzell Scimitar prop. Not the new carbon fiber one -- that thing is insanely expensive ($25k??). We're talking changing a $4k prop for a $9k prop.

[RoundTwo]

I installed a Scimitar in June when the original McCauley prop wasn’t worth repairing. The Scimitar is 10 pounds heavier on my J, totally negating the SkyTec starter weight savings. As far as my ‘88 J is concerned, if anything happened, I lost speed. I was also told I’d gain, but I never saw it. Maybe it’s different for different models, but my 205 didn’t benefit from the switch.

Edited Sunday at 10:49 PM by RoundTwo

[Jackk]

1 hour ago, AndreiC said:

Maybe I wasn't clear. I am talking about upgrading my 3-blade McCauley with a **metal** Hartzell Scimitar prop. Not the new carbon fiber one -- that thing is insanely expensive ($25k??). We're talking changing a $4k prop for a $9k prop.

Ahh ok 

even more so in that case 

 I’d probably just keep what ya got

[Echo]

Andre,

That is a tough call.  My first plane had a three blade Mac prop and I liked it.  The climb is definitly better, but I have the two blade Hartzel on current  E and it IS less vibey.  As far as speed I dunno because two different planes.  I definitely would not change my two for a three blade, but I am a CB...I think I would keep flying three until you have an issue?  It does sound like new prop is priced right though...  Scott

[Hank]

I like the 3-blade Hartzell on my C. Need to do the three way GPS run, but when I've used the back page in my G430W, it comes up 145-148 KTAS at 7500 and up.

The climb is pretty good, too.

[jamesm]

Snowbird Mooney on FB  did a comparison on the I think it was between  3 blade Hartzell v 2 Blade McCauley prop  on mid 60's C Models. .https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FrEx4EzV4NJM%3Fsi%3D4RMULGDEmuZ8hZkY%26fbclid%3DIwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR64Xg2d9PKKDhfq0o3eC7S73m4z3ArfH99l0tcqTjPpFgkOFuYekaTu-ql07Q_aem_vlkrXj_JK4ci5At8yrLD9w&h=AT14nNGXlgnae3C_NK13855G-M7WfBYhUwHORlkZeSNQWGOqHMEGNl1aM7_uHGMG5LVa4kd2hm1fQrMe7VkxD2R82sOz1zx2fWCOanbn2iPJQG-7uD-hnWqxf95rWr4AppPCVJGqGuYzWkUaO6KdRmI&__tn__=H-R&c[0]=AT1XEye8FKfVKCOniIFJrQYQ5BewEmJLQw2PoJKpj3OopcySmphbjj6tfdMl3idb8kaDx0-6KI58LomJQOcsFj1ERS-CmWW3UeuHIDVERq0r_1mlkSCrFoq1-Cyf0sxOqcyxlp1Ea6hykjlQbmxCXyX-_g9jOe0MS5lM-sjSeLc2jFMH7Ec

Top Prop 2 blade is about 3 lbs heavier than the Original 2 blade Hartzell Prop but on C models gets rid of the "avoid continuous RPM" operation restriction in Cruise. if I recall correctly on the 'E  model it reduced the avoid continuous range operation in Cruise. 

[Jim Peace]

I have the Scimitar on my C.  I was getting about 145 knots TAS for many years.  Then I had it overhauled mostly due to time.  Nothing wrong with the prop itself.  At the same time I had a new governor put on.  Prior to the new governor My prop was having difficulty cycling on the ground and the RPM always drifted in flight.  Now it's rock solid and I am getting 150 knots TAS.  

 

[0TreeLemur]

The original Hartzell on my C was condemned because it had been overhauled the maximum allowable number of times.  Both blades with root diameter under min. limit.

So I bought a Hartzell "Top Prop" to replace it.   I saw no increase in speed.  It might have been a little bit quieter, but not obviously so.

 I had it installed in August.  The paint started to come off the stripes on tips the first time I flew through rain, in Sept.  

Took it back to the shop where I bought it and they repainted it in Nov.  I paid (again) to have it reinstalled.  Next time I flew through rain- paint started coming off again.  Repainted in November, and here is a photo of what it looked like the following June.   Hartzell couldn't care less.   The prop shop said that they would keep repainting it if I returned it to their shop.   It costs money to remove/reinstall a prop, and the prop shop wouldn't pay.   Hartzell couldn't rub two coins together.

I never landed on grass or taxied through weeds.  Nothing unusual.  Just flew through rain.  My experience with the Hartzell Top Prop was not positive.   If I had it to do over again, I'd try to find a good used prop with a "B" hub.

 

[EricJ]

5 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

The original Hartzell on my C was condemned because it had been overhauled the maximum allowable number of times.  Both blades with root diameter under min. limit.

So I bought a Hartzell "Top Prop" to replace it.   I saw no increase in speed.  It might have been a little bit quieter, but not obviously so.

 I had it installed in August.  The paint started to come off the stripes on tips the first time I flew through rain, in Sept.  

Took it back to the shop where I bought it and they repainted it in Nov.  I paid (again) to have it reinstalled.  Next time I flew through rain- paint started coming off again.  Repainted in November, and here is a photo of what it looked like the following June.   Hartzell couldn't care less.   The prop shop said that they would keep repainting it if I returned it to their shop.   It costs money to remove/reinstall a prop, and the prop shop wouldn't pay.   Hartzell couldn't rub two coins together.

I never landed on grass or taxied through weeds.  Nothing unusual.  Just flew through rain.  My experience with the Hartzell Top Prop was not positive.   If I had it to do over again, I'd try to find a good used prop with a "B" hub.

 

FWIW, one of the few things an A&P can do to a prop is paint it.    You don't need to take it off and send it to the shop if there's an A&P that will paint it in-place for you.

[0TreeLemur]

1 minute ago, EricJ said:

FWIW, one of the few things an A&P can do to a prop is paint it.    You don't need to take it off and send it to the shop if there's an A&P that will paint it in-place for you.

Yeah, but that costs money too- I didn't see it as my problem.  Who better to repaint than a prop shop?   Their repainting job didn't stick so I doubt that an A&P rattle can paint job would have.   Anyhow, that propeller and the aircraft it is attached to is no longer mine.   

I just offered my experience to help the OP make a decision.   I would not spend money on a new Hartzell Top Prop if I could find a good used prop with a B hub.  It ain't worth it, and Hartzell did have a QA/QC problem with the one that I bought that was not resolved to my satisfaction.  

[KSMooniac]

How does the W&B compare with both props on your E?  Will removing weight on the nose and moving the CG aft help you, or hurt you, in terms of loading flexibility and cruise speed?  Generally, aft CG = faster, but if you're already near the aft limit then a lighter prop might hurt you.

On my J, it helped going from the OEM 2-blade McCaulley to the 3-blade MT that was ~12 lbs lighter.  That may not be the case for a C or E.

[jetdriven]

7 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

The original Hartzell on my C was condemned because it had been overhauled the maximum allowable number of times.  Both blades with root diameter under min. limit.

So I bought a Hartzell "Top Prop" to replace it.   I saw no increase in speed.  It might have been a little bit quieter, but not obviously so.

 I had it installed in August.  The paint started to come off the stripes on tips the first time I flew through rain, in Sept.  

Took it back to the shop where I bought it and they repainted it in Nov.  I paid (again) to have it reinstalled.  Next time I flew through rain- paint started coming off again.  Repainted in November, and here is a photo of what it looked like the following June.   Hartzell couldn't care less.   The prop shop said that they would keep repainting it if I returned it to their shop.   It costs money to remove/reinstall a prop, and the prop shop wouldn't pay.   Hartzell couldn't rub two coins together.

I never landed on grass or taxied through weeds.  Nothing unusual.  Just flew through rain.  My experience with the Hartzell Top Prop was not positive.   If I had it to do over again, I'd try to find a good used prop with a "B" hub.

 

a properly painted prop wont do that.  if they etch, alodine, and primer, and topcoat inside the proper window, it will adhere.  This was not. 

[EricJ]

23 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

a properly painted prop wont do that.  if they etch, alodine, and primer, and topcoat inside the proper window, it will adhere.  This was not. 

Mine has never done that and I know a number of people with Scimitar props that haven't had that problem, so I suspect it was an isolated issue.   Bummer that it was recurring, though.

[carusoam]

18 hours ago, jamesm said:

Snowbird Mooney on FB  did a comparison on the I think it was between  3 blade Hartzell v 2 Blade McCauley prop  on mid 60's C Models. .https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FrEx4EzV4NJM%3Fsi%3D4RMULGDEmuZ8hZkY%26fbclid%3DIwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR64Xg2d9PKKDhfq0o3eC7S73m4z3ArfH99l0tcqTjPpFgkOFuYekaTu-ql07Q_aem_vlkrXj_JK4ci5At8yrLD9w&h=AT14nNGXlgnae3C_NK13855G-M7WfBYhUwHORlkZeSNQWGOqHMEGNl1aM7_uHGMG5LVa4kd2hm1fQrMe7VkxD2R82sOz1zx2fWCOanbn2iPJQG-7uD-hnWqxf95rWr4AppPCVJGqGuYzWkUaO6KdRmI&__tn__=H-R&c[0]=AT1XEye8FKfVKCOniIFJrQYQ5BewEmJLQw2PoJKpj3OopcySmphbjj6tfdMl3idb8kaDx0-6KI58LomJQOcsFj1ERS-CmWW3UeuHIDVERq0r_1mlkSCrFoq1-Cyf0sxOqcyxlp1Ea6hykjlQbmxCXyX-_g9jOe0MS5lM-sjSeLc2jFMH7Ec

Top Prop 2 blade is about 3 lbs heavier than the Original 2 blade Hartzell Prop but on C models gets rid of the "avoid continuous RPM" operation restriction in Cruise. if I recall correctly on the 'E  model it reduced the avoid continuous range operation in Cruise. 

Fun times…

I bumped into SnowBird via YT…

and briefly discussed two vs. three blade props and composite vs. metal…

Best regards,

-a-

[bob865]

I know I'm hijacking the thread a bit, but how is everyone running their engines with this prop.  I traded the old prop with the "Avoid cont. ops. between 2100 and 2350 rpm" which was no big deal because I only ever had it in this range during approach and landing .  But with the Top Prop I have a "Continuous operation is prohibited above 24" MP between 2350-2550 RPM" restriction.  This feels harder to stay out of.  In general, I just pull the power below 24" and set the RPM wherever makes sense for my pitch/power combo needed, and above around 5k,  it seems the restriction doesn't matter either since the power is below 24".  Is this generally how the community views this restriction?

[Hank]

I have a C with Hartzell 3-blade and below ~4000 I generally cruise at 23"/2300.

Mid-levels are 22"/2400; above ~7500 I use WOT-/2500.

So I'm not affected by the RPM limitation (which is slightly different for my engine).

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, bob865 said:

I know I'm hijacking the thread a bit, but how is everyone running their engines with this prop.  I traded the old prop with the "Avoid cont. ops. between 2100 and 2350 rpm" which was no big deal because I only ever had it in this range during approach and landing .  But with the Top Prop I have a "Continuous operation is prohibited above 24" MP between 2350-2550 RPM" restriction.  This feels harder to stay out of.  In general, I just pull the power below 24" and set the RPM wherever makes sense for my pitch/power combo needed, and above around 5k,  it seems the restriction doesn't matter either since the power is below 24".  Is this generally how the community views this restriction?

The crankshafts in the J models have dynamic counterweights, and the RPM restriction is actually deleted with the two-blade Scimitar.    I suspect that's because it has more mass, so moves the torsional resonance to a different frequency that's no longer an issue.    The C and E model engines have solid cranks, so the bad frequencies apparently are still within operating RPM range.

[bob865]

Thanks, @EricJ and @Hank.  I am flying with a 2-blade on an E model.  I think why I ask and why it bugs me is that I'm supposed to update the yellow and red arcs on the tach and that means the tach will almost always show yellow or red in normal cruise.  I HATE that because when you get used to seeing red and yellow as ok, then you miss real issues.

Edited Wednesday at 01:59 PM by bob865

[Echo]

On 8/19/2025 at 1:59 PM, bob865 said:

I know I'm hijacking the thread a bit, but how is everyone running their engines with this prop.  I traded the old prop with the "Avoid cont. ops. between 2100 and 2350 rpm" which was no big deal because I only ever had it in this range during approach and landing .  But with the Top Prop I have a "Continuous operation is prohibited above 24" MP between 2350-2550 RPM" restriction.  This feels harder to stay out of.  In general, I just pull the power below 24" and set the RPM wherever makes sense for my pitch/power combo needed, and above around 5k,  it seems the restriction doesn't matter either since the power is below 24".  Is this generally how the community views this restriction?

At 6500' and above at 2500 rpm and 9-10gph I don't make 24"mp so NOT a problem for me.  I am reducing MP on decent so NOT above 24"mp.  In climb I am max rpm so again, outside of 24".  If down low say 3000' on a short hop I just set mp at 23.

[Echo]

Andre, if the prop is a search for speed, the issue may be that your plane is post 1968 "clean wing" Mooney production and is consisered a "dirty wing" due to non flush rivets done by Butler and Republic in a cost savings venture.  Per Coy Jacobs in his book backward tails The later Butler and Republic aircraft with dirty wings can be several knots slower than earlier flush rivet retractable step clean wing Mooney aircraft.  This speed deficit can easily be remediated with cowl, windshield and other 201 type mods per Jacobs.

[1980Mooney]

On 8/18/2025 at 8:16 AM, 0TreeLemur said:

The original Hartzell on my C was condemned because it had been overhauled the maximum allowable number of times.  Both blades with root diameter under min. limit.

Just curious - how many times was the prop overhauled over how many years and hours?  I have never heard of the hub being "condemned" due to maximum number of overhauls - just blades below min. and therefore replaced.

[0TreeLemur]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

Just curious - how many times was the prop overhauled over how many years and hours?  I have never heard of the hub being "condemned" due to maximum number of overhauls - just blades below min. and therefore replaced.

The blades were red tagged.  One was overcut 0.001" and the other 0.003".   I don't know how many times it had been overhauled.  The A/C was a '67 model and prop was installed in 1977, don't know if it was new or used.   Probably used.   It had the "A" hub.  I didn't want an "A" hub- PITA.   Rather than hunt around for a B-hub prop, I decided to go for the new Top Prop.   All I'm saying is that a good B hub prop works great if you can find one.  There is little to gain by going with a new Top Prop, unless your wallet is just too darn heavy from all that extra money in it.   The challenge of course is finding a used prop that is in good shape and will take another O/H if necessary.