Seeking Advice - Sell OR Keep N9353M?

[bonal]

Seems simple to me, you wouldn’t take the whole family for a drive in a 911 if that’s the goal you need an SUV with wings I hear the big Bonanza’s are nice

[Pinecone]

3 hours ago, bonal said:

Seems simple to me, you wouldn’t take the whole family for a drive in a 911 if that’s the goal you need an SUV with wings I hear the big Bonanza’s are nice

But I will take the M3 for fun and still practical.  And rent an SUV for the family trips.

 

[Pinecone]

7 hours ago, Jackk said:

Having a flight director is VERY desired 

I did my instrument training in jets (USAF).  I would say the biggest game changer was the HSI.

The FD was nice, but not as much difference as the HSI.

At least until the 430 came out as the next level of game changer.

[dkkim73]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

The FD was nice, but not as much difference as the HSI.

 

Agree, esp. for 6-pack flying. And man, the 430W's still pack a lot of value...

[dkkim73]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

But I will take the M3 for fun and still practical.  And rent an SUV for the family trips.

 

I had a 2006 Subaru STi as a daily driver. "It's a 4-door, it's practical..." uh, yeah. Actually it was. Amazing car. My dad had an old (60s? 70s?) Citroën SM he worked on and loved. We took a ski vacation as a family of 4 with baggage and skis in it. 

If the clowns can do it, so can we. 

But seriously, if you can make the W&B work it's an adventure (early on at least). I don't think it obviates the issue about more hauling capacity. 

Since you @Zippy_Bird are open to the idea of novel/dual solutions, consider if you can't find a good rental/club plane, you could try a partnership with the one that is a better fit (more common mission, more predictable scheduling, better shared cost, etc). 

And yes, definitely, do some fun/intro flights. Make it light, easy and a treat. Go when it's calm, etc. You probably already know some of this. 

And, minor correction, not to be pedantic. Technically, it doesn't turn money into noise, it turns fuel into fun, with the waste energy dissipated as the sound of freedom

[NickG]

Hey @Zippy_Bird - great questions and an enlightening thread. Maybe I missed it but I guess a critical piece of this is "what's your budget"? Hypotheticals are fine but If your budget is comfortable owning an E, and is not comfortable stretching beyond that, you may want to reconsider - perhaps you should keep your E and upgrade incrementally as budget allows. As for a great family hauler, the ones mentioned - lance, Saratoga, Bonanza etc will cost considerably more both in acquisition and maintenance costs. Plus, the prices for the "family haulers" have gone the way of ridiculous of late. 

I'm seeing some good value these days on Commanche's - but still only a 4 place unless Its a 260B or C model with the third row of seats. If money is not a limiting factor, then a1st generation Saratoga Turbo or Lance Turbo provide good performance with a decent useful load and the Lance Turbo won't break the bank. None of them are a Mooney but then you know that (Commache probably closest)

Just my 2c

[Jackk]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

I did my instrument training in jets (USAF).  I would say the biggest game changer was the HSI.

The FD was nice, but not as much difference as the HSI.

At least until the 430 came out as the next level of game changer.

 To each their own 

 

 Transport category we are on the FD much more than raw data minus a fail down

[Pinecone]

16 hours ago, Jackk said:

 To each their own 

 

 Transport category we are on the FD much more than raw data minus a fail down

Not saying that an FD is not a good thing.

Just starting from a 6 pack, the HSI gives you a lot of situational awareness.   

FD makes you the autopilot servos. It does not increase situational awareness.

[anthonydesmet]

Not knowing your budget and since I have heard family truckster, Sky-burban in this thread, the one that comes to my mind is the one that I almost went to a couple years ago. When I think 6 seats, I think twin and (still do sometimes) I think of a Cessna Skymaster 337. My mechanic is a skymaster specialist and I’ve flown a couple. I like the way they fly.  

[DXB]

On 7/21/2025 at 7:16 PM, Zippy_Bird said:

Hi All,

I am at a crossroads with my airplane and would appreciate the advice of experienced owners who have bought-sold and bought again.  I would like to know the motiving factors behind your decision to change platforms.

I have a 1966 Mooney M20E Super-21 that I purchased a few years back from Jimmy at GMAX.  This is my first airplane purchase and my first ownership experience.  The plane came with some big squawks, but I found a great mechanic and have repaired (or upgraded) my way to a compliant, safe, and great performing bird.  It is an absolute blast to fly and I love it.  HOWEVER...

1) It is essentially a VFR airplane with old Avionics.  It has an old Garmin 150 GPS (VFR only) navigator, two King KX155s with one KI209 head, a King KN64 DME, and a King KT76A transponder with uAvionix SkyBeacon for ADSB-out.  I have a Brittain PC wing leveler, but currently no auto-pilot capabilities.  Panel is the Mooney shot-gun SIX plus the one KI209 VOR with GS.

2) I really want to do IFR training in my own airplane.  While there is an argument I could train in mine now (flying Victor airways doing old-school approaches ILS, VOR, and DME) this is NOT the current state of IFR training or IFR flying.  Initial discussion with a local CFII about this possibility did not yield a willing instructor.

3) The estimates I have seen to upgrade the avionics are considerable.

4) I have a wife and three young boys keen to fly in Dad's airplane.  Even if I were to upgrade avionics to complete my instrument rating, I cannot family-haul.

I love this Mooney.  It has some great upgrades (Hartzell Scimitar Prop, PowerFlow Exhaust, Garmin GI-275 EIS, CIES fuel senders).  But, given all the above is NOW the time to accept a mission change and get another platform?  Not 100% certain trading the Mooney for another airplane is the right move, likewise not 100% certain adding avionics $$$ is the right move either.

Maybe I am missing something.  Would appreciate some other perspectives!

Thanks,

Zach

 

 

Some thoughts:

(1) Your Mooney is an awesome instrument platform

(2)  Finding vintage planes with fully modern avionics is tough, making your plane an excellent blank slate on which to build an IFR panel that will serve you for a decade or much more after the investment up front

(3) You will find a CFII to train you in it.  Again it is a great instrument platform.

10 years ago, I did an extensive update on my panel before instrument training. It was a great decision in retrospect. Though I don't have time to stay proficient in multiple planes, I remain very comfortable flying hard IMC in that plane.  

 

[Jackk]

41 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Not saying that an FD is not a good thing.

Just starting from a 6 pack, the HSI gives you a lot of situational awareness.   

FD makes you the autopilot servos. It does not increase situational awareness.

If someone is not flying much IMC (maybe not many hours at all) and doesn’t have higher level recurrent training, it’s nice to just keep it simple. 
 

Even for the pros, on that dark stormy night after major delays making a max duty/flight day, and legal but so so night sleep, it’s nice to be able to follow the FD vs splitting between needles, attitude etc

[dkkim73]

1 hour ago, anthonydesmet said:

When I think 6 seats, I think twin and (still do sometimes) I think of a Cessna Skymaster 337.

The Cessna Mixmaster holds an odd fascination for me. It actually looks like a pretty usable airplane, great vis, and at least some I've seen aren't that pricey. 

[Pinecone]

18 hours ago, Jackk said:

If someone is not flying much IMC (maybe not many hours at all) and doesn’t have higher level recurrent training, it’s nice to just keep it simple. 
 

Even for the pros, on that dark stormy night after major delays making a max duty/flight day, and legal but so so night sleep, it’s nice to be able to follow the FD vs splitting between needles, attitude etc

Again not saying that an FD is not a great piece of equipment.  But blindly flying the needles without good situational awareness is a VERY BAD thing.

Just like incorrectly setting or selecting the mode on the AP and causing a mishap, the FD is the same.  You HAVE to be able to determine that the FD is directing you where you want to go.  And the HSI helps a LOT with seeing that picture.

[Pinecone]

17 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

The Cessna Mixmaster holds an odd fascination for me. It actually looks like a pretty usable airplane, great vis, and at least some I've seen aren't that pricey. 

Get an O-2 version and you have a warbird and can go be part of the airshow world.

 

[Hank]

@Zippy_Bird, I did my IFR training and checkride in my C, with no right-side brakes. I've since relocated, and done many IPCs and Flight Reviews with three instructors as they were available (at three local fields).

It shouldn't be difficult to find a good CFII who will train you in the E.

My G430W is a fine instrument, and many are available at low prices, plus install at an avionics shop (Garmin dealer required).

[Hank]

Hey, @Zippy_Bird, check this:

 

[Jackk]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

Again not saying that an FD is not a great piece of equipment.  But blindly flying the needles without good situational awareness is a VERY BAD thing.

Just like incorrectly setting or selecting the mode on the AP and causing a mishap, the FD is the same.  You HAVE to be able to determine that the FD is directing you where you want to go.  And the HSI helps a LOT with seeing that picture.

 If you are naving to the wrong fix a HSI is going to fly you into the hill just the same as the FD, it’s the same guidance just a different presentation 

[Pinecone]

2 hours ago, Jackk said:

 If you are naving to the wrong fix a HSI is going to fly you into the hill just the same as the FD, it’s the same guidance just a different presentation 

DUH.  But it gives you a much clearer picture of where you are in relation to where you expect to be.  FD just tells you where to go.

Again, of the two, IMO, the HSI gives you more of an upgrade to a 6 pack.

When was the last time you flew a 6 pack without an HSI?

[Jackk]

14 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

DUH.  But it gives you a much clearer picture of where you are in relation to where you expect to be.  FD just tells you where to go.

Again, of the two, IMO, the HSI gives you more of an upgrade to a 6 pack.

When was the last time you flew a 6 pack without an HSI?

like a month ago 

If you have situational awareness you have it, HSI/FD, or best yet a EHSI lower and a AI with FD  upper, situational awareness is still a separate matter from the panel

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

DUH.  But it gives you a much clearer picture of where you are in relation to where you expect to be.  FD just tells you where to go.

Again, of the two, IMO, the HSI gives you more of an upgrade to a 6 pack.

When was the last time you flew a 6 pack without an HSI?

I fly a 6-pack without an HSI every time I get in my Mooney. 

I did make 2 or 3 flights in friends' planes with HSIs, nor knowing what I was looking at, it didn't make much difference. 

[MikeOH]

Well, of the two, I'd REALLY like to have an HSI.  FD? Meh...

It's the ONE piece of 'glass' I may spring for: replace my heading gyro with a G5.

How many AMU is that going to run me to purchase and install/integrate with my STEC-30, GPSS, and GNS430W?

[Pinecone]

On 7/25/2025 at 5:30 PM, Hank said:

I fly a 6-pack without an HSI every time I get in my Mooney. 

I did make 2 or 3 flights in friends' planes with HSIs, nor knowing what I was looking at, it didn't make much difference. 

Once you figure out what is is showing, you will want one.

 

[Pinecone]

On 7/25/2025 at 2:56 PM, Jackk said:

like a month ago 

If you have situational awareness you have it, HSI/FD, or best yet a EHSI lower and a AI with FD  upper, situational awareness is still a separate matter from the panel

Try this.  Fly your FD with your DG/HSI covered and see how much SA you have of where you are.

[EricJ]

8 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Try this.  Fly your FD with your DG/HSI covered and see how much SA you have of where you are.

During my IR check ride the DPE, as expected, covered up my AI during an ILS approach.    My HSI is a G5, so I was like, no problem, I'll just switch it to AI mode, which I did, and which the DPE was fine with.    After a few seconds I realized I'd much rather have the HSI to keep pointed in the right direction, so switched it back and used the TC for bank.   A modern HSI like a G5 or what you get with a lot of glass displays realy is a nice thing to have.

[Jackk]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

Try this.  Fly your FD with your DG/HSI covered and see how much SA you have of where you are.

They do this during recurrent often, they fail my PFD and I fly the standbys, they will always make us fly “raw data” without the FD too,  situational awareness doesn’t really change, my scan just becomes more busy, this requires a little more mental load and if anything takes a little away from SA.

 

 FD is much like a AP, it’s just designed to take work load off so you can use your noodle to find the facts, make options, run a risk benefit on those options, decide, execute, and check how that’s working for ya.

 I’ve flown with guys who when things get busy hand fly or reduce automation when it’s available/functional, NOPE, opposite day lol   Often this was due to them not being comfortable making the automation do what they want vs “whats it doing?!” -> Beeeeep —>and now we are hand flying raw data

Edited July 29 by Jackk