Logbook Page Removed and not Disclosed - Criminal Misrepresentation?

[M20GforMe]

22 minutes ago, takair said:

Those look like the air filters for the Brittain system.  Brittain sourced them from Fram.  Given Brittain does not sell them anymore, you too can source them from Fram…..

Well then this will give me something else to talk to the A&P about tomorrow… good to know.

[M20GforMe]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

I am NOT trying to scare anyone. In FACT, I stated the $135/hr was a fair shop rate.

I was sharing MY experience with labor hours for various discrepancies based on the 7 annuals I've had.  I find 3 hours to remove a couple of birds' nests to be excessive; I don't think that's being a CB, but you're certainly free to think that's a fair price!

As far as materials' mark-ups, what do you think is fair? 15%, 25%, 50%, 100%?  At what point would you feel taken advantage of?

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think that was a $405 task by any stretch of the imagination.  

As for parts markup, everyone will have a varying answer on this. If it’s 15% up to maybe 30% then it’s probably not far off base. I wouldn’t be able to afford a plane if I sold things at cost at my dayjob either. 

I also think the acceptable markup percentage varies by cost of part. I don’t want to pay an installer 100% more on a $6K EFIS in addition to the labor. But I also doubt the avionics guy is paying retail for the avionics either. At the same time, if he charged me $2 for a screw that he got for $1, I wouldn’t be complaining. But nothing costs $1 in aviation so I guess that’s a moot point 

Edited Wednesday at 10:59 PM by M20GforMe
Spelling

[M20GforMe]

41 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

If you don't need more than two seats, and frankly, most of us don't, Vans are a great option.

As the 32 year old who has to pay for a wedding this year too, I figured it was best to plan for extra seats in the future
 

I trust myself behind a wrench pretty well, but I don’t know enough about aviation to take it all on myself, and it’s not the place I want to take risks. I think I’ll spend the next year finding an A&P that will let owners assist, and get my paws greasy to learn more. The guys over at DACY seemed like they were genuine lovers of aviation and would have let me get my hands dirty, but I was never able to get on their schedule the 2 or 3 times I tried

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

Perhaps you did not see that the shop found corrosion on the engine mount and prescribed Corrective Action of "Strip down, clean and paint to prevent reoccurrence".  If you are having the engine pulled (for issues you highlight) and if they are removing the engine mount frame, then it would be really cheap/"penny wise" to not replace the Lord or Barry mounts at the time. 

Agreed, but given some of the information provided I wasn't going to assume that any or all of the work stated actually needed to be done.   A squawk list that long for a new owner with a new airplane smells a bit too much like opportunism to me without a second opinion from somebody Mooney-competent.   It may be all or mostly legit, but I certainly wouldn't assume that when presented with a large repair estimate on inspection squawks.

 

[Aaviationist]

I’m going to strongly suggest they did not properly check the clearance on those rocker arms properly. If they are as tight and short as suggested, they wouldn’t have made it 800hrs AND you wouldn’t have had good compression. 

[takair]

2 hours ago, M20GforMe said:

Well then this will give me something else to talk to the A&P about tomorrow… good to know.

There are 4 in this image.  The new-old stock Britain’s still have the sticker and you can see they cut off the inlet fitting.  That’s all that’s different.  

[toto]

3 hours ago, M20GforMe said:

I will say, besides having to have a wallet that can handle it, breaking into aviation without a pre-existing aviation "network" has been tough. That being said, everyone has been welcoming and very helpful, but it took a while to meet the guys in town who have Mooney's, I could've used their wealth of knowledge and network sooner.

This is what many of us use MooneySpace for. I don’t know anyone at my airport with a Mooney, and I don’t know anyone anywhere who owns a Mooney aside from this community. Every time I have a question about anything, I post it here, and it’s been invaluable. 

[M20GforMe]

5 hours ago, cliffy said:

Get in touch with Mike Busch at SavvyAvaition.com  right now

He is the guy you need for help RIGHT NOW 

His fees are reasonable and the cheapest money you will ever spend on your plane.

savvyaviation.com

Run don't walk to your computer!!!

Doing some more digging here, is there a way you would recommend approaching this? Do I need to buy a certain level of their plan and then ask for Mike? Or is it not Mike specifically that I need, but just anyone from Savvy?

Would I need to schedule a time with them and my A&P together?
 

Sorry just trying to get my ducks in a row before I reach out to Savvy. I don’t want to use anyone’s time inefficiently. Thank you!

[skykrawler]

Item 14 seems to have the labor rate off by a factor of 10 - turning a 1 hour item into $1350.  Better check that total.

[cliffy]

30 minutes ago, M20GforMe said:

Doing some more digging here, is there a way you would recommend approaching this? Do I need to buy a certain level of their plan and then ask for Mike? Or is it not Mike specifically that I need, but just anyone from Savvy?

Would I need to schedule a time with them and my A&P together?
 

Sorry just trying to get my ducks in a row before I reach out to Savvy. I don’t want to use anyone’s time inefficiently. Thank you!

 

 

@M20GforMe

You just call them and explain what you are facing and they have experts on call to help.

You can explain what you are faced with and they will offer what plan you need    Probably the $449 or $899   If you want them to step in then it would be the $899  If you want their advice and you present that to the shop yourself then the $449 one. In reality the $899 one is still a bargain considering what you are faced with for a bill at this time. 

I HAVE NO CONNECTION WITH SAVVY  only have meet Mike several times  and watched in person his presentations at seminars. He' helped a lot of folks over the years and he knows what to do. 

[OR75]

I am not sure some items deemed airworthiness items are really airworthiness items ( vacuum filter ??? seriously ? ) 

trim position ? was the whole rigging of the plane checked ?

flat spot on tire ? 7 hours to change the tires ? 

 

[Paul Thomas]

5 hours ago, M20GforMe said:

Also someone touched on the serial plate number before - I asked about this a few weeks ago. The serial plate is where it’s supposed to be, I watched videos of other G’s and found the plate to be in the same location. I had intentions to fly the plane to Canada and back. When I asked the A&P to leave it as is and remove from the quote, they said “The data plate is in the original spot. I wasn't going to remove the original one. I was going to stamp and install another one on the pilot's side tail. If you weren't planning on flying out of the country, we would not worry about it. But since you do plan on it. It has to be secured to the exterior fuselage, near the on the rear of the fuselage near the tail surfaces”

As I recall based on some reading in the past year, your IA is complying with DEA needs and regulations. The DEA needed it so their agents could easily find the plate. As a result, there is a rule as to where the place has to be and what it needs to contain. I know that many historical aircraft/data plates do not meet that regulation.

One would have to read the regulations to determine whether, if you have a plate that pre-dates the rule, you have any obligation to move it. The issues that regularly come  up for international travel are radio licenses, stickers, and 12 inch N# but I have never heard that brought up.

[DCarlton]

4 hours ago, takair said:

There are 4 in this image.  The new-old stock Britain’s still have the sticker and you can see they cut off the inlet fitting.  That’s all that’s different.  

Pretty sure the Brittain air filters are modified Fram fuel filters.  

[MB65E]

Is Jimmy Finefield (sp) still working at 06C? I used to work with Lynn Hadler when he was there we had about 5 Mooney clients. Who knew I would have my own one day. ;-). Learned a ton working with Lynn, we still talk occasionally.

As for the big scary bill, yeah, sure.
06C is not out in the sticks. It’s pretty much a Major population suburb of Chicago. I bet an independent BMW shop is 250/h. Sounds like a lot of deferred MX that was finally inspected properly. I know I can’t change a crank seal in 2.5h for 135/hr. I’ve done it about 4 or 5 times on my airplane. That’s barely enough time to get the prop off and back on. 
The shop sounds capable of getting you flying again. I would move on and go fly. 
-Matt

[MB65E]

Also, don’t move the data plate. There were some strange years at Mooney. Data plates were installed on the right side FWD cabin vent scoop. 
I’d be happy to go over the list with you. Before a dime is spent on any component or upgrade, I would verify the state of corrosion on the airplane. Pull the rear seats out and check the rear spar and main spar webs and Caps. Nobody pulls the tape off the seat panels. 
-Matt

[Schllc]

The reality is that this needs to be chalked up to experience.  
The only winners in any litigation will be the attorneys, you will spend more in fees than you will ever recover. 
You will also not be able to bring in another mechanic in, or move the plane for any less than you are currently stuck with. 
While it’s easy for us who have been owners for years to say this is the way it is,  for a new, first time owner this is a bitter pill. 
Try to focus on the upside, which is that your plane will be tight and right after this, and like everyone else says, fly the heck out of it after and enjoy the confidence of a well maintained airplane. 
In a few years this won’t even be a blip on your radar. 

[Fly Boomer]

6 hours ago, MB65E said:

Sounds like a lot of deferred MX that was finally inspected properly.

^^^THIS^^^ @M20GforMe this is the bottom line.  Personal experience and reading this forum has taught me that an airplane for sale that does NOT have deferred maintenance is a rare bird.  Americans, or the pilot community, or maybe just Mooney people want "cheap" above all else, and nobody wants to spend money on an airplane that has fallen into disuse.  You have received a ton of advice here mostly suggesting that you got screwed on the sale, and that you continue to get screwed by your shop.  I'll swim upstream and say that a quick review of the estimate did not look wildly out of line to me.  The hourly shop rate is not bad for your part of the country -- check out the hourly rate for a plumber.  Sounds like they looked at everything, found a ton of discrepancies, and estimated the time and materials to fix everything.  If I were in your shoes, I would work with this shop to understand what needs to be fixed to get your annual signed off and what can be deferred a year.  The cost is brutal, but if you burn this bridge now, you may come to regret it later.  Good shops are hard to find.  Personal relationships are everything.

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, MB65E said:

Also, don’t move the data plate. There were some strange years at Mooney. Data plates were installed on the right side FWD cabin vent scoop. 
I’d be happy to go over the list with you. Before a dime is spent on any component or upgrade, I would verify the state of corrosion on the airplane. Pull the rear seats out and check the rear spar and main spar webs and Caps. Nobody pulls the tape off the seat panels. 
-Matt

@M20GforMe If this hasn't been done, please do this before you do anything else

[Old Chub]

Do not let them spilt the case on your engine.   I agree with a previous post who stated it would not have had good compressions and ran fine for 800 hours if the main case is as they are telling you.   On another note if the main case had actually had too much material removed and line bored the back accessory case would not have been able to be fitted to the main case.   There is a locating pin on each half of the main case.   If too much material was removed these two pins would no longer line up with the accessory case.   This is an issue of the A&P trying to apply a dry tappet clearance with a hydraulic lifter that has taken up this clearance.  As previously stated you must remove the cup and the hydraulic lifter and remove all oil before attempting to use the dry clearance shown in the overhaul manual.  

[Utah20Gflyer]

3 hours ago, Old Chub said:

Do not let them spilt the case on your engine.   I agree with a previous post who stated it would not have had good compressions and ran fine for 800 hours if the main case is as they are telling you.   On another note if the main case had actually had too much material removed and line bored the back accessory case would not have been able to be fitted to the main case.   There is a locating pin on each half of the main case.   If too much material was removed these two pins would no longer line up with the accessory case.   This is an issue of the A&P trying to apply a dry tappet clearance with a hydraulic lifter that has taken up this clearance.  As previously stated you must remove the cup and the hydraulic lifter and remove all oil before attempting to use the dry clearance shown in the overhaul manual.  

When I pulled a cylinder on my engine to replace a broken stud I definitely noticed that it was much more difficult to get the rockers back in.  This concerned me at the time but the mechanic said as long as we put everything back the way it came out there is nothing to worry about with it being really tight.  
 

If the pushrods really were that out of spec then the valves would never close and you would have zero compression.  Given the engine was running fine previously I think that mechanic should follow my mechanics advice and put everything back together the way it came apart.  

[PT20J]

The discrepancy list shows that they did a very thorough inspection which is a good thing. Not all of this needs to be fixed immediately, however, to legally and safely return the airplane to service. I would work with the shop to prioritize. A second opinion is always a good idea and I would not expect a reputable shop to object. I have even had shops call in another mechanic for a second opinion when they saw something questionable. Most of the labor estimates don’t seem unreasonable to me based on my experience. It took my mechanic a couple of hours to mount my McCauley prop on the new engine. And he’s done a lot of them. It’s tricky to torque the nuts and safety wiring with .040 wire is difficult with the nuts recessed in the hub. And properly shimming the spinner takes a bit of trial and error.

It appears that your new bird has not been all that well maintained. This is not uncommon. I would just sit down with the shop owner/manager and work out a plan of action. This may be a new situation for you, but I guarantee it’s not the first one for the shop.

Good luck 

[Bunti]

A few years ago, I called Brittain for some new air filters for my autopilot. I personally spoke to the owner of the company who sadly died a while ago.

Instead of selling me the filters, he suggested to me to buy certain Fram fuel filters from the auto parts  store and to trim it somehow at one end. He told me that this is exactly what they would do at Brittain. 

In addition to this filter, our planes contain many auto parts. In my Mooney, for example, the oil and fuel pressure sensors are both automotive parts, manufactured by VDO. 

Also, most of the light bulbs are automotive parts. 

[M20GforMe]

Thank you for the input - I spoke with a savvy member and they said it’s a bit late for them to get involved, past the point of where they could be much help. I’ll speak with the shop owner directly and see if they can get it put back together with original parts. Maybe I can invest in an engine monitor instead for the time being.

Would anyone happen to know if the attached alternator would have ever been acceptable on the plane? This was the one on the plane that the A&P said was automotive and was illegal to have. He said they were trying to find correct brackets for it because it was misaligned originally, but then they saw the label and said it was illegal

[Utah20Gflyer]

12 minutes ago, M20GforMe said:

Thank you for the input - I spoke with a savvy member and they said it’s a bit late for them to get involved, past the point of where they could be much help. I’ll speak with the shop owner directly and see if they can get it put back together with original parts. Maybe I can invest in an engine monitor instead for the time being.

Would anyone happen to know if the attached alternator would have ever been acceptable on the plane? This was the one on the plane that the A&P said was automotive and was illegal to have. He said they were trying to find correct brackets for it because it was misaligned originally, but then they saw the label and said it was illegal

It’s very likely that the alternator is not an aviation specific unit. The reason is not that the STC holder doesn’t use an alternator from Carquest.  The reason is that they charge 3x the price to remove the carquest sticker and apply their sticker.  
 

Look in your logbook and see if you can find a logbook entry saying when that alternator was installed.  Also look for any STCs for alternator conversion.  You’ll probably just have to spring for an approved alternator and a little labor to swap them.   It would probably be good to have the new alternator in hand before the mechanic starts looking for brackets.   Could be an alternator issue rather than a bracket issue that is causing the misalignment.  

[OR75]

what matters is not a paper sticker but the actual part number 

A step you should take is search (google) for the Mooney TCDS ... it should return 2A3 as a pdf document

Print the pages that correspond to your model and see in the electrical equipment section if that alternator or generator part number is approved to be installed in your plane. If it is not listed, the log book of the plane should include a basis on which another alternator was installed instead . maybe an STC , PMA , etc... ?

that applies to any part installed on your plane