Replaced Starter - Invoice was WAY more than expected

[Jsno]

Just now, Jsno said:

Removing the lower cowl does take some time.  You haven’t seen to disconnect the landing light, cowl doors, oil cooler, oil line clamps, oil line heat shield.  Disconnect the inlet boost duct.  Remove bolts at lower firewall.  All of this in a very tight space.  It does take quite a bit of time to do that and reassemble.

Sorry about the auto correct changing some of the words.

[ArtVandelay]

Maybe the mechanic had very little Mooney experience, so did it by the book without any shortcut knowledge. I imagine a experience Mooney mechanic could do it in less time.

[N201MKTurbo]

45 minutes ago, Jsno said:

Removing the lower cowl does take some time.  You haven’t seen to disconnect the landing light, cowl doors, oil cooler, oil line clamps, oil line heat shield.  Disconnect the inlet boost duct.  Remove bolts at lower firewall.  All of this in a very tight space.  It does take quite a bit of time to do that and reassemble.

You forgot the ram air cable.

[A64Pilot]

What is his hourly rate?

Auto dealers around here get approaching $200 an hour I’m told, but it’s Florida and that means up North prices.

‘Having said that I had my John Deere lawnmower worked on in Georgia, their hourly rate for a Lawnmower was higher than an IA got.

[BillyT0020]

My mechanic and I swapped a Delco Remy to a Skytec 149 NL outside on the ramp AOG in Tucson in ~ 2 hours (Bendix bushing blew up). We had limited tools and had to drop the lower cowl. No way I’m buying its an 8 hour job inside a shop with everything available. 

[M20F]

On 1/21/2025 at 4:36 PM, Hank said:

Cheeks and top, less than five minutes; bottom a little more--whole thing 15-20 minutes to remove, call it twice that long to put back on. I've only removed my lower cowling once, many years ago, and with my 3-blade prop it was a pain. I could do it in the morning, alone, with multiple breaks for coffee and donuts and phone calls . . .

Own a 67F.  My experience is the same about an hour tops.  I made a post a few days back saying I wished it broke more as it is the easiest thing to fix.  
 
 
 

[gwav8or]

1 hour ago, BillyT0020 said:

My mechanic and I swapped a Delco Remy to a Skytec 149 NL outside on the ramp AOG in Tucson in ~ 2 hours (Bendix bushing blew up). We had limited tools and had to drop the lower cowl. No way I’m buying its an 8 hour job inside a shop with everything available. 

Do you still have the power boost intake, cable and oil cooler on the front cowl?  I watched a guy drop the bottom cowl on a J and it was super easy.  Only thing to worry about was the landing light.  

[ArtVandelay]

Do you still have the power boost intake, cable and oil cooler on the front cowl?  I watched a guy drop the bottom cowl on a J and it was super easy.  Only thing to worry about was the landing light.  

Some don’t even have that, just have to have something soft to rest it on if doing it singlehanded.

[BillyT0020]

2 hours ago, gwav8or said:

Do you still have the power boost intake, cable and oil cooler on the front cowl?  I watched a guy drop the bottom cowl on a J and it was super easy.  Only thing to worry about was the landing light.  

Yup still have both the boost cable and oil cooler on lower cowl. I changed the Landing light to an LED so its just two small screws to unhook. J cowl is way easier tho, wish the F was like that. 

[Aaviationist]

On an older F/G/C/E the bottom cowling, which is required to come off, is not as easy as you think especially for 1 person. 
 

its at least a couple of hours to get it off. 
 

swapping the older starters for the new one is not built on and probably required some “modifications “ depending on what alternator is on it. 
 

putting the bottom cowling back on is worse and again not easily a 1 person job. It can be a major hassle depending on the hardware. 
 

all this aggravated by not having quarter turns. 
 

12 doesn’t really sound that far off, especially not if 2 people worked on it. 
 

no you cannot take that full cowling off and on in 2 hours. 
 

it was a lot more work than you probably thought it was. 

[BillyT0020]

3 minutes ago, Aaviationist said:

On an older F/G/C/E the bottom cowling, which is required to come off, is not as easy as you think especially for 1 person. 
 

its at least a couple of hours to get it off. 
 

swapping the older starters for the new one is not built on and probably required some “modifications “ depending on what alternator is on it. 
 

putting the bottom cowling back on is worse and again not easily a 1 person job. It can be a major hassle depending on the hardware. 
 

all this aggravated by not having quarter turns. 
 

12 doesn’t really sound that far off, especially not if 2 people worked on it. 
 

no you cannot take that full cowling off and on in 2 hours. 
 

it was a lot more work than you probably thought it was. 

The ONLY way thats a 12 hour job is if his mechanic is in a union. 
 

2 hours is definitely possibly if its not your first time dropping the lower cowl. I literally just did it 6 weeks ago AOG away from my home field.
 

It took longer to find someone on the field that had tin snips to cut the baffles than anything else. 

[Yetti]

I would say it is probably accurate if you drop the lower cowl. It is pain.     And you do have to get to the Right rear bolt on the starter.   What I do is take the alternator off to get to that bolt.  By taking the alternator off you don't have to drop the lower cowl.     Getting to the mounting bolts on the alternator are a pain.

If you went from the Prestolite starter to a newer one then  they had to do some mods to the front baffling around the starter.

Also count updating the paperwork and Weight and Balance update. Also might need to update Equipment list.

I would put it that for the most part they did not pad the hours,  It really could take someone that long.

Next time try asking what they thing it will take to do the work before work is started.

I always write the check out for the Annual more than what is on the bill, and he makes me do most of the work.

Edited Sunday at 10:54 PM by Yetti

[BobbyH]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

I always write the check out for the Annual more than what is on the bill, and he makes me do most of the work.

I have a '66 E and agree with many, it is a real PITA to open up the bottom of the cowling.  I assist with the annuals and still pay a pretty price but I have an IA who is a really good wrench and knows what he is doing around airplanes.  I'm happy to pay him knowing I'm also learning from him and getting to know my plane better each year.  I may have limited funds but a good mechanic is getting harder to find and keep.  Even my IA has lost 3 mechanics to the airlines since they have better pay and benefits.  I believe proper care and feeding of your A&P/IA can go a long way toward having a fun and safe plane to fly in. 

[BRBENNETT]

I had to change one out myself while on a trip. It took me about 9 1/2 hours, no modifications required.  It’s a PITA!!

[gwav8or]

On 1/22/2025 at 3:46 PM, A64Pilot said:

What is his hourly rate?

Auto dealers around here get approaching $200 an hour I’m told, but it’s Florida and that means up North prices.

‘Having said that I had my John Deere lawnmower worked on in Georgia, their hourly rate for a Lawnmower was higher than an IA got.

The shop rate is lower than average.  I had a pwc worked on recently and their hourly rate is 50% higher than my A&P.  I know I shouldn't complain.  

[gwav8or]

On 1/22/2025 at 7:51 PM, Aaviationist said:

On an older F/G/C/E the bottom cowling, which is required to come off, is not as easy as you think especially for 1 person. 
 

its at least a couple of hours to get it off. 
 

swapping the older starters for the new one is not built on and probably required some “modifications “ depending on what alternator is on it. 
 

putting the bottom cowling back on is worse and again not easily a 1 person job. It can be a major hassle depending on the hardware. 
 

all this aggravated by not having quarter turns. 
 

12 doesn’t really sound that far off, especially not if 2 people worked on it. 
 

no you cannot take that full cowling off and on in 2 hours. 
 

it was a lot more work than you probably thought it was. 

Yeah, I agree it's more work than I thought.

[Aaviationist]

21 hours ago, gwav8or said:

Yeah, I agree it's more work than I thought.

Those that said it could be done in a couple of hours have no idea. 

[gwav8or]

1 hour ago, Aaviationist said:

Those that said it could be done in a couple of hours have no idea. 

Yeah, after taking the cheek cowls off and looking more closely at what would need to be done, I agree.  It's more involved than a few simple bolts/screws.

For those that say it's only a couple hours, I'd like to see a full uncut video of someone removing and replacing the cowl on an unmodified 67 F.

Edited Tuesday at 12:59 PM by gwav8or

[carusoam]

On 1/22/2025 at 8:03 AM, gwav8or said:

Yep, the 172 I fly occasionally has the same starter which is the reason I went with the SkyTec.  Looking forward to it.  Wonder if the high speed starter will make any difference in hot/warm starts?

Absolutely makes a difference during challenging starting conditions…

especially when changing mixture conditions during the start…

and when so much fuel has vaporized in the system prior to start…

 

generally, it takes more blades going by to stabilize the actual mixture being delivered…

more blades per minute, with increased momentum, helps the whole thing work better…

as it starts, the fuel and air are all moving similarly to when it is idling…

all making successful starts possible…

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or cfi….

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Let’s not get too deep into removing the lower part of the cowl with time efficiency…

I think my my M20C’s lower cowl got removed twice in the decade i owned it…

cheek plates and top cowl were easy to take on and off as long as the hardware / fasteners were fresh…

easy to replace hardware bits and pieces, if not done yet…

the top fasteners collect rain water and have a tendency to rust if they haven’t been swapped for SS…

more fastener challenges… are the tiny screws and speed nuts related to the dog house…

be on the look out for cracks in the dog house…

for extra fun… look into moving the oil cooler from the front to behind the cylinders… back of the dog house.

Best regards,

-a-

[Jim Peace]

I have a C and 90% of the labor to change my oil is removing the cowling and re installing....

[Jim Peace]

On 1/21/2025 at 4:36 PM, Hank said:

Cheeks and top, less than five minutes; 

you can't remove or install the cheeks and the top in 5 minutes....unless you have 6 people working it at the same time...The two bolts in the front that hold the top on that need to be removed near the air inlet take about 10-15 minutes each to remove....

[gwav8or]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Let’s not get too deep into removing the lower part of the cowl with time efficiency…

I think my my M20C’s lower cowl got removed twice in the decade i owned it…

cheek plates and top cowl were easy to take on and off as long as the hardware / fasteners were fresh…

easy to replace hardware bits and pieces, if not done yet…

the top fasteners collect rain water and have a tendency to rust if they haven’t been swapped for SS…

more fastener challenges… are the tiny screws and speed nuts related to the dog house…

be on the look out for cracks in the dog house…

for extra fun… look into moving the oil cooler from the front to behind the cylinders… back of the dog house.

Best regards,

-a-

Well fortunately for me, I don't have the doghouse.  But from what I understand, part of the aluminum baffling has to come off and according to the mechanic, the alternator also had to come off.  So, that along with the Power Boost inlet and the oil cooler the bottom cowl had to come off.  idk but after looking at it more closely myself that seemed accurate.  To my untrained eye.

[Hank]

48 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

you can't remove or install the cheeks and the top in 5 minutes....unless you have 6 people working it at the same time...The two bolts in the front that hold the top on that need to be removed near the air inlet take about 10-15 minutes each to remove....

Five minutes to remove, maybe six to reinstall. There are four bolts at the front and two at the rear of the top, then a whole bunch of quarter-turn dzus fasteners. Five at the back, and what 12 or 14 on each cheek? Quick, quick, quick.

Reassembly is easier if you put both cheeks on, and leave the top fastener on each side open until after fitting the top.

I've spent much of my career working in or with industrial maintenance, I've never spent more than one minute to remove a single #8 screw like is on the front of our cowls. Even though these are Philips and not socket heads, they come out easy.

[MikeOH]

I don't know about a C, but my F takes less than five minutes to remove the top and cheeks.  As @Hank says, the six #8 machine screws come out quick; I can't fathom how you'd spend 10-15 minutes EACH?!?!??  And, this is working by myself!  I swear I could remove them in 3 minutes flat if put to the test!

I will say I'm not as quick as Hank putting them back on.  Takes me about 10 minutes to get all the baffle seals and fasteners lined up.  I've tried putting the cheeks on first, but that has just made it more difficult for me.  Not sure why it's easier, but I've settled on installing the top cowl first.

Edited yesterday at 02:40 AM by MikeOH