Panel upgrade electrical documentation

[spistora]

For those of you that have panel upgrades, I'm curious what type of electrical documentation you did, or what you may have received from the installer. I trying to decide if I should redraw the schematic in a similar format to the original, or redraw in format similar to Dynon's example. I assume installers aren't redrawing full schematics but I'm curious how they mark up existing schematics, if they do. Anyway, I mainly interested in seeing some examples of redrawn schematics if anyone has something to share.

Thanks.

MAN134 elec.pdf

Dynon example.pdf

[PT20J]

Don't know about Dynon. For Garmin, there are connection diagrams in the installation manuals and my installer marked up the appropriate documents showing what was connected to what. There are also configuration documents that needed to be filled out to show how the units were configured since there are a LOT of settings that are set up in config mode. I took the Mooney schematic pdf to a print shop and had a D size copy made and the installer marked up any changes to the Mooney wiring. 

 

[spistora]

Thanks Skip. That's kind of the direction I think I'm going. I printed the original schematic in large format and plan to mark up a demo set and an as-installed set for the original wiring. I was contemplating redrawing the original schematics in a similar format to the connection diagrams provided by Dynon/Garmin for the as-installed drawings. I'm not sure if it's worth the effort though.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, spistora said:

For those of you that have panel upgrades, I'm curious what type of electrical documentation you did, or what you may have received from the installer. I trying to decide if I should redraw the schematic in a similar format to the original, or redraw in format similar to Dynon's example. I assume installers aren't redrawing full schematics but I'm curious how they mark up existing schematics, if they do. Anyway, I mainly interested in seeing some examples of redrawn schematics if anyone has something to share.

Thanks.

MAN134 elec.pdf 951.41 kB · 4 downloads

Dynon example.pdf 699.81 kB · 1 download

I had a significant panel overhaul done by a large local shop, and I asked for "as built" drawings, or sketches or anything that would help for understanding and maintaining the installation.   They refused.   I don't know why, but they specifically refused to provide any documentation on the work they had done.   I've since installed some things myself and had to reverse engineer what they had done, and I know I'll have to do more of that when I remove the existing (inop) autopilot and replace it.  I do document what I do and what I've sorted out that the shop did, but it would have been a lot easier and saved a ton of time to get some sort of documentation from the shop.

[N201MKTurbo]

When I did my panel upgrade in 2017 before I wired anything I drew schematics for everything. It made the install much easier.

I have an old copy of Altium Designer I used for the schematics.

I was doing the annual on a 310 recently and I had some questions about some of the new wiring. The owner said "I think I have that". He produced a complete set of schematics for the latest avionics upgrade. They were very well done. So, a good set of schematics are not unheard of.

[jamesm]

I have debated what is the best way in doing this ... The Mid 1960's schematics seem to be straight forward but when I look at early 1980's I see too many lines that could lead me a stray. So is it best to have one that breaks down power for one layer and another layer specifics signals and perhaps 3rd misc signal that aren't your standard A429,RS232,RS485,RS422, CAN, Grey code, etc ,etc , etc.   If you owned the airplane for years you probably have good idea what equipment has been added and removed over the years but if you are new owner or a little deterred by what might seem to be a complex maze of wires going everywhere or no where in some case depending how previous person dealt with that. Mine was fairly simple I was around for most or the work that was done to it. I think the only wires that haven't been replaced is Pitot heat, Stall warning fuel pump, and the big fat cables ground and power cables (starter alternator, and battery) and maybe portions of overhead/shoulder lighting torpedo lights. all else wiring has been replace with Tefzel  MS grade wiring.

James '67C

[Aerodon]

I think you need to separate your thinking into electrical and avionics.

Printing up a full size Mooney electrical drawing and marking up is a great idea.  There can be a lot of stuff removed, replaced or modified during an upgrade, and its not hard to make handwritten notes to the drawings.    Things like annunciators, old engine instruments, dimmer unit replaced, vacuum warning lights, etc.

My Mooney drawing shows the avionics circuit breakers to an avionics power connector, and another one to an autopilot power connector.  I've tried to keep the same pattern going, although I no longer need the autopilot connector.  And I no longer need the Sonalerts for the autopilot.  

All avionics shops should provide some documentation as part of the requirement for 'continued airworthiness'.  I would be satisfied with an overall block diagram and then individual sections for each item installed.  Most avionics manufacturers provide 'installation drawings' that can be printed and marked up. Often these include interfaces to other manufacturers equipment.  

Aerodon

 

[spistora]

Thanks for all the ideas. It seems like have a combination of the revised original schematics and the new block diagram style is pretty typical. If I get board in the future, I might convert the marked up schematics into a more readable format matching the manufacturers drawings.

[Lois]

One of the most valuable parts of the supersize printout is being able to chase and read each wire and connectors labels as you deconstruct and modify the system. 

[laytonl]

On 12/30/2024 at 11:48 AM, Aerodon said:

I think you need to separate your thinkinking into electrical and avionics.

Printing up a full size Mooney electrical drawing and marking up is a great idea.  There can be a lot of stuff removed, replaced or modified during an upgrade, and its not hard to make handwritten notes to the drawings.    Things like annunciators, old engine instruments, dimmer unit replaced, vacuum warning lights, etc.

My Mooney drawing shows the avionics circuit breakers to an avionics power connector, and another one to an autopilot power connector.  I've tried to keep the same pattern going, although I no longer need the autopilot connector.  And I no longer need the Sonalerts for the autopilot.  

All avionics shops should provide some documentation as part of the requirement for 'continued airworthiness'.  I would be satisfied with an overall block diagram and then individual sections for each item installed.  Most avionics manufacturers provide 'installation drawings' that can be printed and marked up. Often these include interfaces to other manufacturers equipment.  

Aerodon

 

^This^.   I scanned my wiring diagram and I am slowly updating the electrical diagrams and leaving the avionics to another schematic.  Things like, instrument cluster, fuel flow, clock, standby vacuum, strobe power supplies, etc are being erased. Only Power and ground for avionics are shown on this diagram.  Lee

[shawnd]

I am still going through my avionics install, and as part of it, issues were found that has resulted in almost new harness all the way through except for some underbelly connections. I, like Skip, provided the original M20K Mooney schematics to my shop which was very useful to diagnose the problem. Which proved that having reference diagrams are crucial and can save you significant time and money down the road.

My plan is to redo the wiring schematics with the new avionics in KiCad so that I myself can reference it for troubleshooting or provide it to the next shop for the next upgrade. I tried other software but KiCad seems to win from the feature set perspective and also it’s free!

[Aerodon]

If it is any help, I have a nice 24" roll printer and can print the 24x48" or even 24x96" Mooney electrical drawings for you.

 

Aerodon

 

 

[spistora]

16 hours ago, Aerodon said:

If it is any help, I have a nice 24" roll printer and can print the 24x48" or even 24x96" Mooney electrical drawings for you.

 

Aerodon

 

 

Thanks. I did get 5 copies printed locally to work with.

[1980Mooney]

This whole discussion is fricking nuts.  Every one of our pre-G1000 20-60 year old Mooney's that have undergone any kind of panel upgrade is bespoke - It is unlikely any 2 Mooney's have exactly the same choice, brands, combination. location/placement of instruments/autopilot 14 vs 28 volt system, harness/wiring & placement, C/B & fusing, switching, etc.

And today a Mooney owner can easily spend $80,000 + on a panel upgrade.  So after all that, an owner can look forward to redrawing their own electrical schematics??

Who the hell has the time, interest, knowhow, patience to do that?  Many (most?) owners can't easily even follow an electrical schematic.

It is no wonder that aircraft ownership is not growing.  Kids today do not grow up building Heathkits, taking electronic, drafting, shop classes in jr. high anymore.  Owning an old plane is not just time intensive - it is knowhow intensive.  Especially if you are spending time scrounging or making parts and fixing all the time.  This just does not appeal to most of the current generation.  Cirrus has got it right - the future of General Aviation is for millionaires.

Edited Monday at 05:07 PM by 1980Mooney

[DCarlton]

26 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

This whole discussion is fricking nuts.  Every one of our pre-G1000 20-60 year old Mooney's that have undergone any kind of panel upgrade is bespoke - It is unlikely any 2 Mooney's have exactly the same choice, brands, combination. location/placement of instruments/autopilot 14 vs 28 volt system, harness/wiring & placement, C/B & fusing, switching, etc.

And today a Mooney owner can easily spend $80,000 + on a panel upgrade.  So after all that, an owner can look forward to redrawing their own electrical schematics??

Who the hell has the time, interest, knowhow, patience to do that?  Many (most?) owners can't easily even follow an electrical schematic.

It is no wonder that aircraft ownership is not growing.  Kids today do not grow up building Heathkits, taking electronic, drafting, shop classes in jr. high anymore.  Owning an old plane is not just time intensive - it is knowhow intensive.  Especially if you are spending time scrounging or making parts and fixing all the time.  This just does not appeal to most of the current generation.  Cirrus has got it right - the future of General Aviation is for millionaires.

Aviation is knowhow intensive.  Mooneys seem to draw a tech savvy crowd; engineers... technicians because they admire the design.  Engineers and technicians appreciate the value of good schematics... thus the interest.  The future of aviation for the tech savvy crowd is experimental and for the ones that don't have the knowhow, agree, they'll have to be wealthy.    

[Aerodon]

I think this is one of the fundamental differences between a Mooney owner and a Cirrus owner.  You rarely see a Cirrus owner doing panel upgrades, it's easier to trade in your older model for a newer model, or even the newest model.  There is a healthy 'chain' of options.

A later M20 model with G1000 makes life real difficult to change.

The rest of us like being involved in the upgrade.  I agree, every avionics upgrade should be accompanied by proper documentation for future maintenance.  But you get what you pay for.  There is some pretty sophisticated CAD software 'plug-ins' for electrical drawings, a skilled technician could draw a nice drawing with 'phot realistic' connectors and all the wires in between.  But it's going to be expensive.

One Mooney owner here redraw his electrical drawing in CAD, that's impressive.  It is well worth printing a full size electrical drawing for your plane and marking up the changes over the years.  And I am a big fan of removing old wiring that is no longer in use.  Mooneys have CPC connectors all over the place and it's not difficult to remove a wire back to the CPC and pop the pin and wire out.   

It's not difficult to mark up the factory electrical drawing with changes, things like engine instruments, clocks, USB's, dimmers, pulse lites, etc.  And a couple of Mooney service bulletins along the way (ACU power).

Approach Systems produce a nice block diagram of their Hub and cables.  And each cable has a build sheet.

Apollo used to provide excellent 'full stack' drawings.

Garmin provides a pretty good library of drawings, all it takes is for the avionics shop to print them out and maybe hand mark a few details.

 

 

Aerodon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1980Mooney]

12 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Aviation is knowhow intensive.  Mooneys seem to draw a tech savvy crowd; engineers... technicians because they admire the design.  Engineers and technicians appreciate the value of good schematics... thus the interest.  The future of aviation for the tech savvy crowd is experimental and for the ones that don't have the knowhow, agree, they'll have to be wealthy.    

 

"The future of aviation for the tech savvy crowd is experimental and for the ones that don't have the knowhow, agree, they'll have to be wealthy.  "

The current generation is a "tech savvy crowd" - just different tech.  They seem to be more adept at remapping an engine ECU than rewiring a car.

 

11 hours ago, Aerodon said:

I think this is one of the fundamental differences between a Mooney owner and a Cirrus owner.  You rarely see a Cirrus owner doing panel upgrades, it's easier to trade in your older model for a newer model, or even the newest model.  There is a healthy 'chain' of options.

The rest of us like being involved in the upgrade.  ...

One Mooney owner here redraw his electrical drawing in CAD, that's impressive.  It is well worth printing a full size electrical drawing for your plane and marking up the changes over the years.  And I am a big fan of removing old wiring that is no longer in use.  Mooneys have CPC connectors all over the place and it's not difficult to remove a wire back to the CPC and pop the pin and wire out.   

Apollo used to provide excellent 'full stack' drawings.

"The rest of us like being involved in the upgrade."...that should be "Some of Us" like being involved in the upgrade.  I think most of us would rather be involved in actually flying the plane rather than intricacies of redesigning, rewiring, rebuilding and re-schematicing our planes.  After all - there are only so many hours in the day.

"Apollo used to provide excellent 'full stack' drawings." .... ancient history  - Garmin bought theme to strip the superior technology, eliminate a competitor and shut them down.

"Mooneys have CPC connectors all over the place and it's not difficult to remove a wire back to the CPC and pop the pin and wire out.".   Yes but not every avionics shop that has worked on our planes over the last 20-60 years has bothered to do that.  They are not always going to dig out all the old bundles, rewire and rebundle.   A lot is chop in place. The old Mooney Factory wires were numbered - the new wiring added for modifications over time I find is generally just all white.  Sorting it all out can be a nightmare.

 

Edited Tuesday at 05:49 AM by 1980Mooney