An accident from 1989: Mooney and Airbus

[Ibra]

I met a retired airport staff who told me about this Mooney accident:

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/326152

Looking at the picture from archives, I am surprised how Mooney and pilot survived?

The interesting part of the story: the pilot walked 2km for 30min in the fog all the way to the terminal (the pilot was Wubbo Ockels, a Dutch astronaut who flew US Space Shuttle, I understood it was a case of mis-communication between pilot and tower)  

Edited Sunday at 10:12 PM by Ibra

[PeteMc]

Ouch!  Even if you are cleared onto the Rwy, always a good idea to have been listening to hear if anyone else is already headed to that Rwy. 

 

[Ron McBride]

Many years ago, I was based at Chino. I was cleared to taxi into position and hold full length 21, there was a Cherokee holding midfield on 21.  Tower cleared me for takeoff with the Cherokee still holding.   The tower stammered when I declined the clearance.  The Cherokee just sat there fat dumb and happy.  

[PeteMc]

12 minutes ago, Ron McBride said:

The tower stammered when I declined the clearance.  

I can see it now...   You: Unable  Twr: What do you mean unable, I need you to depart immed... er... umm....  Cherokee 123, cleared for takeoff.  

But on the serious side... You really need to pay attention to what else is going on.  I scare myself into a Pause every so often when I'm not sure if I was really listening to the Freq and have an idea of what's going on around me. 

Edited Sunday at 11:52 PM by PeteMc

[Ibra]

8 hours ago, PeteMc said:

I scare myself into a Pause every so often when I'm not sure if I was really listening to the Freq and have an idea of what's going on around me. 

Indeed, especially if it's 500m RVR !

I think he was told to "hold and contact tower", which was misinterpreted as "lined up and hold", I think the standard radio now is "hold position". The inbound traffic was using French on tower frequency, which did not help...Let's say things are better now, however, I still hate getting "line up and hold", I keep nagging the tower every 5 seconds until they clear me to takeoff, even 30 seconds feels like ages: you are on threshold waiting for takeoff clearance while other traffic are busy chatting in pattern or procedure behind "my 6 o'clock" 

I am impressed how that Mooney and pilot walked away...

 

 

Edited Monday at 08:24 AM by Ibra

[Sue Bon]

16 minutes ago, Ibra said:

The inbound traffic was using French on tower frequency, which did not help...Let's say things are better now,

Are they? Flying in France is no cakewalk. It freaks me out every time I'm the only one speaking English on the frequency.

I think I will go to Montpellier next year for a month of intensive French with private lessons focusing on aviation. I saw that Rouen has an excellent school for intensive learning, but your weather in November is not much better than ours, so the sunshine of Montpellier is attractive. 

[Ibra]

24 minutes ago, Sue Bon said:

Are they? Flying in France is no cakewalk. It freaks me out every time I'm the only one speaking English on the frequency

Usually for IFR it's English, however, there are two rare exceptions: sometimes in France, they use French and in Spain they use Spanish. 

I think it's something to do with national pride (altough it adversely affect safety) and fact that ICAO still recognise 6 languages (Engligh, French, Spanish and one would get the same on radio with Russian, Arabic, Chinese. However, I have not flown that far under IFR)

For radio in uncontrolled VFR airfields, it's part of the fun: I am lucky being able to speak German and wife can talk Spanish, we still get surprises when trying to guess Catalan and Schweizerdeutsch  

Edited Monday at 09:08 AM by Ibra

[Ibra]

43 minutes ago, Sue Bon said:

I think I will go to Montpellier next year for a month of intensive French with private lessons focusing on aviation.

It's nice place to fly and learn, one tend to learn French easily with some wine (they can't fly though ). You don't need to learn a lot to visit smaller airfields (actually no one is flying around at lunch time),

https://www.lingaero.com/FrenchRadio.HTM

If you know the runway, all you need is "base piste 11", "finale piste 11", "piste dégagée"   French ULM/UL pilots don't even go that far, they barely call "finale" if one is lucky 

Edited Monday at 09:29 AM by Ibra

[Sue Bon]

1 hour ago, Ibra said:

Usually for IFR it's English

True, but not always. Several times I've had to request clearance or other information in English. One time I flew to Reims (IFR) and didn't do my homework enough to see that radio calls are only in French from 1200-1330 LT. I was so very lucky to land at 1155!

 

[Ibra]

2 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

One time I flew to Reims (IFR) and didn't do my homework enough to see that radio calls are only in French from 1200-1330 LT. I was so very lucky to land at 1155!

It was one condition to allow IFR to small airfields without ATS (I was one of meetings when this come up). It's a sort from CYA from DGAC to avoid the problems of mixing VFR/IFR traffic while talking different languages in untowred airfields...

For ATC airfields, it's an aberration to use anything other than English for IFR on radio, things are moving in the right direction (e.g. "military ATC" now have to speak English)

For IFR to uncontrolled airfields it's "double edge sword" or "leave that dog sleep". Most countries in Europe already prohibit IFR procedures to uncontrolled airfields outside ATS hours altogether (without English speaking ATC or English speaking AFIS). Actually, France is now starting to move to this direction as well due to some obscure "safety and harmonisation" requirements...

Some countries even prohibit VFR without someone on radio outside ATS hours (e.g. no ATC or no AG operator at Shoreham EGKA = no flying, no  Flughlighter in Germany = no VFR flying, no AFIS in Speyer = no IFR flying, no RO in Belgium = no flying...)

Edited Monday at 12:39 PM by Ibra

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, Ibra said:

Some countries even prohibit VFR without someone on radio outside ATS hours (e.g. no ATC or no AG operator at Shoreham EGKA = no flying, no  Flughlighter in Germany = no VFR flying, no AFIS in Speyer = no IFR flying, no RO in Belgium = no flying...)

That's an awful lot of "no flying"!! 

[Ibra]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

That's an awful lot of "no flying"!! 

One gets used to it for public airports (private airports are much more relaxed about opening hours) 

I recall while ago I was flying VFR from Poznan (Poland) to Stapleford (private airfield in UK) at night: one Dutch ATC along the way told me he never heard a single piston aircraft in frequency at night in his entire career (he was curious why we are doing it? )

For someone coming from US or used to fly in US, it comes as shock when airfield close at 5pm after fireman or controllers go home: unlike US where you have private pilots, Bizjets, Part135, helimeds, police...all flying untowred in middle of the night with PCL/LPV and load of arrangements with FBO or School 

I also complain about restaurant opening hours and service: in US one can eat lunch at 2am while being served with smile. Here in France, one is more likely to starve on Sundays if they land after 2pm in some remote village: the landing is the easy part, finding food is tricky 

Edited Monday at 01:41 PM by Ibra

[Fly Boomer]

48 minutes ago, Ibra said:

I also complain about restaurant opening hours and service: in US one can eat lunch at 2am while being served with smile. Here in France, one is more likely to starve on Sundays if they land after 2pm in some remote village: the landing is the easy part, finding food is tricky

Seems like there are fewer all-night businesses of all types since COVID.  I cannot think of an all-night market or restaurant.  Probably could find a café or restaurant at a truck stop on an interstate highway if you were desperate.

[A64Pilot]

In 1989 we flew 2 AH-64’s, 2 OH-58’s and 2 Lynx’s from Germany to Dax France for their helicopter school’s airshow, we met up with a French Gazelle at the border to escort us, which was a good thing because all ATC calls were in French, sure you could usually make a call in English and they would respond in English, but all other calls were in French. It’s amazing how much info you get from hearing the other calls.

That was an eventful trip, took way longer than we expected, refueling wasn’t center point refuel, but open port like we do our Mooney’s, and we had to reposition each aircraft one at a time to the pump to refuel. Ended up getting dark and we landed at some little grass strip, seemed the whole town turned out and cooked us Supper at the pilot lounge. Two Chinooks also went in another flight, I can’t imagine how their refueling went.

On edit it was probably 93 or 94 I was still at Ft Hood in 89

Edited Monday at 02:44 PM by A64Pilot

[Ibra]

19 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Seems like there are fewer all-night businesses of all types since COVID

Indeed, COVID was somehow a precedent where it was acceptable to “close X and carry on” (X = airport, restaurant, shop, fuel station). Then many of these places and businesses have never recovered: some has to do with laziness (there is a technical term somewhere) and a lot has to do with cost-cutting and online shopping post-CV19 

https://www.retail-systems.com/rs/Supermarkets_Ditch_24_Hour_Opening_To_Pick_E_Commerce_Orders.php

https://www.axios.com/2023/03/17/stores-restaurants-covid-changes

Edited Monday at 02:46 PM by Ibra

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, Ibra said:

I  also complain about restaurant opening hours and service: in US one can eat lunch at 2am while being served with smile. Here in France, one is more likely to starve on Sundays if they land after 2pm in some remote village: the landing is the easy part, finding food is tricky 

Germany at least in the 90’s was that way too, but Frankly I find it more Civilized, I think of those people who have to work nights and weekends in order for me to get what I want 24/7, and think the sacrifice they have to make just so I can get a doughnut or whatever at all hours is more than they should be asked to do.

[MatthiasArnold]

7 hours ago, Ibra said:

Usually for IFR it's English, however, there are two rare exceptions: sometimes in France, they use French and in Spain they use Spanish

.. and in Italy they pretty often use Italian (at least on Milano Radar and Genova Radar) ..

[Ibra]

1 hour ago, MatthiasArnold said:

and in Italy they pretty often use Italian (at least on Milano Radar and Genova Radar)

I had that in Milan TMA as well, the fun part is everyone gets same radar code from ATC, how the heck, they know "who is who?" and "who talks Italian or English?" 

In France, I was told by ATC that they assign different transponder codes for aircraft speaking French (Helimed, Military, French VFR/IFR) than those talking English (English VFR/IFR), even when everyone has ModeS 

Edited Monday at 05:26 PM by Ibra