Anyone have any idea what happened to this airplane?

[aviatoreb]

3 minutes ago, AME LLC said:

I sump the tanks religiously.   Didn’t get any water or contamination before takeoff. Yes, you can use a mixture of alcohol per the POH.  I didn’t do this.  But it is a thing.  However, if you screw up the ratio, which seems easy to do, you can actually go the other way.    The fuel cap o rings are a known issue as well. Replace them every annual.  
This engine was just overhauled by Victor Aviation Black Edition.  We have about 130 hours on the engine now.  I called around to mooney service station friends of mine while on the dirt road.  We came to the conclusion of ice, but we thought it was ice particles in the tank.   Then I called John Pava at Victor Aviation.  He told me that this happened to a Malibu about 15 years ago.   Same engine just a different dash number.  It’s a C I think. The acclaim is a G. Same situation engine quit at FL250 deadstick landing.   Victor Aviation disassembled the flow divider and found the ice there.  
We suspected it was the same thing in this situation.  But there is a solution other than mixing additives and avoiding cold weather.  Working on that now. 

 

Im not sure sumping can catch all ice crystals suspended in the fuel if they are there or would even point out that there is crystals in the fuel when looking at your sump cup.

How did Victor find ice in the flow divider long after the event?  Wouldnt ice melt right away after landing?

BTW - IPA - when I was first reading about it one thing I read is it is standard practice for the Canadian Mounties - and I figure if its good enough for them - its good enough for me - I live in a cold winter climate - but again - it can happen at altitude any time of the year.

[Fly Boomer]

15 hours ago, AME LLC said:

Yeah. That was me.  Dead sticked it from FL210 through the clouds, icing, in the mountains, and broke out at 1500 agl.  All I had was this road so I put her in nicely.  There happened to be a bit of water from the left tank (just switched tanks).  The water went into the fuel flow divider and froze.  -36 C OAT. When the water froze, it expanded and shut the flow of fuel to all cylinders.  No possibility for restart.  I let the plane sit for three hours as I dealt with the local sheriff department (who were excellent btw).  Fired her up.  Run up was perfect so I flew it outta there. lol. Another day in the office.  I’m now working g with the FAA, continental, and another shop to remedy this issue. 

This topic may shed some light.  Bottom line is that not all water sits in the bottom of a tank, patiently waiting for us to sump that tank:

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/40990-beware-fuel-system-icing-it-happened-to-me

 

[dkkim73]

@AME LLC I'm trying to reconcile some of the posts above... when you say flow divider, do you mean the fuel selector valve and/or gascolator? (down low where the tank lines come together) or the "spider" (the per-cylinder flow divider on top of the intake manifold)? 

The former could certainly be cold and it seems odd that the latter wouldn't get some heat... OTOH there is a lot of cooling flow up there, esp. at FL 210, so if it gets cold enough to freeze (or not un-freeze) that's a good data point. 

Thanks,

D

[SKF]

Amazing job AME LLC! Breaking out of the soup at 1,500 AGL in a mountainous area and landing without incident to yourself, others or the aircraft! That’s some great piloting and a whole lot of someone watching over you. Glad that it all worked out well. 

Edited November 27, 2024 by SKF

[AME LLC]

I’m talking about the fuel flow divider (spider).  And I can only tell you what happened.  I did my best to restart the bloody thing. Switching tanks boost pumps, different mixture / throttle settings combos.  I did get an alt air light on the annunciator panel, so I manually pulled that open as well.  I could have had multiple issues all at once.  In any case, I wasnt ever able to restart in the air.   To me, the problem had to be down stream of the fuel selector.  I thought I blew a waste gate controller or something like that. Popped the cowls after changing my pants. And couldn’t find a thing wrong. (I’m also and A&P, IA along with everything else).  That’s when I figured it was ice.  But had to be down stream of the selector and the tanks.  You can ask Victor aviation how they figured the icing issue in the flow divider.  That’s not my story, but I think was right.  The plane ran great after it thawed out.  And I flew her outta there. lol 

Edited November 27, 2024 by AME LLC

[AME LLC]

Here is something curious I don’t have an answer for.  As soon as the engine quit at FL210 all my engine gages on the left side of the MFD went black.  Not red exed out.  Completely black.  From top to bottom.  The mfd was still working as I had pulled up the terrain page (that’s what got me down without hitting a mountain btw.  I picked up a valley on the screen, flew best glide plus a little extra for icing, and prayed I’d pop out in time. God gave me 1500 feet. Just enough!).  I also pressed the engine soft key to display the entire mfd as an engine page and it went completely black.  I pressed the button again and the terrain page came back on. Riddle me that….  It’s got me stumped. 

[Danb]

My Erik time flys I remember bringing you to pick it up.. another job of great airmanship 

D

[Ethan]

Erik,

Just some more follow ups. I was just flying my Mooney to Pendleton the two days after your trip and the weather was . . . iffy. When your engine quit were you in IMC? Were you flying in the cloud tops? Did the ALT AIR light come on before the engine quit? If so how long before it quit did it light up? Did you notice RPM rollback before it quit? If you had to do it over again, what would you have done differently?

Thanks for your generosity with this information. I like flying high at times and want to know everything possible. My engine a TSIO-360 is a mini version of yours.

[dkkim73]

Did you see a broom fly by? Sounds like you were hit with a curse... What with the weird display issues and all. Very interesting stuff, ty again for sharing. Will be interesting to see what else can be gleaned.

[GeeBee]

If you're going to fly in the deep freeze you need anhydrous alcohol additive as there will always be water in suspension in avgas. Known problem for years, and AA is the only approved fix. I use it myself in deep winter months even on an Ovation.

[Fly Boomer]

9 hours ago, GeeBee said:

If you're going to fly in the deep freeze you need anhydrous alcohol additive as there will always be water in suspension in avgas. Known problem for years, and AA is the only approved fix. I use it myself in deep winter months even on an Ovation.

I found quarts and liters of 99 or 100% IPA, but nothing smaller.  What product do you use?

[Slick Nick]

2 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I found quarts and liters of 99 or 100% IPA, but nothing smaller.  What product do you use?

From the maintenance manual, IPA can be added in concentrations not to exceed 1% of total fuel volume. My J has 64gal tanks, so .32 gal per side of IPA is my max if I’m adding to full tanks. That’s 1.2L, round down, call it a litre per tank. I’m going to try this prior to my next flight. It gets COLD here in Canada. At 16,000’ the other day was almost -36*C. I picked up 99% IPA in 1L jugs at Walmart. Was sure not to get the 70% stuff. I’m going to add it as I fuel up, so it mixes really well. 

[Fly Boomer]

3 minutes ago, Slick Nick said:

From the maintenance manual, IPA can be added in concentrations not to exceed 1% of total fuel volume. My J has 64gal tanks, so .32 gal per side of IPA is my max if I’m adding to full tanks. That’s 1.2L, round down, call it a litre per tank. I’m going to try this prior to my next flight. It gets COLD here in Canada. At 16,000’ the other day was almost -36*C. I picked up 99% IPA in 1L jugs at Walmart. Was sure not to get the 70% stuff. I’m going to add it as I fuel up, so it mixes really well. 

I have read (probably on this forum) that the 99 and 100% stuff begins to absorb water as soon as it is opened--I was hoping for smaller containers so that I could better match the IPA quantity to the fuel quantity, and just discard any leftovers.

[GeeBee]

21 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I found quarts and liters of 99 or 100% IPA, but nothing smaller.  What product do you use?

I use the quart bottles from MG chemicals on Amazon. About 10 bucks a quart. Be careful with it as it is really hard and tank sealant. I use a big syringe to measure it out and meter it in at the fuel nozzle for a good mix. 

[EricJ]

Full concentration at 1% may not be necessary.    I'd look around to see if there is experience on how much it takes to be effective (I live in AZ, so  don't know).   Using a lower concentration may help your tank sealant last longer.

 

[toto]

I’ve never used this stuff, don’t know anything about it at all. Could someone give me the elevator speech on anti-ice fuel additives?

Do you need these only in severe temps? Or is this something to consider anytime it’s below freezing?

I’ll never have my J at 21k feet, but I don’t want to dead stick from 10k either..

[A64Pilot]

Ref it can’t happen in jets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_38

ALL fuel has some amount of dissolved water in it, you can’t drain it out, it’s possible that low temps can precipitate it out as ice crystals.

In the Army we had to test fuel before using it for the amount of dissolved water, if the fuel failed we recirculated the fuel in the truck etc through its filter that had I think the same stuff Baby diapers have in it. it absorbs water and turns into a gel, but anyway recirculating it through the filter would absorb the water until it would pass the test.

Test was called Aqua-Glo test.

I know of no such test for Avgas?

[A64Pilot]

Personally I wouldn’t add the alcohol until just before flight as I’m suspicious as to it’s long term effects on sealant and bladders.

I know alcohol will mix with free water and form an emulsion that mixes with gasoline, it’s why E10 etc can contain so much water dissolved it in.

But I don’t know what alcohol does for water dissolved into fuel? Perhaps help keep it in suspension?

Problem is of course you can’t sump out water dissolved into the fuel.

[AME LLC]

I’m not a fan of alcohol. Seems like a bandaid.  I’ve been flying this plane for 10 years.   Did the northern crossing over and back, FL 250, and in icing.  Never had a problem.  I want to see the fuel heated somehow prior to delivery to the fuel flow divider. Or at the fuel flow divider.  The spider sits above the engine.  And isn’t heated like the engine is.  It’s in the cold airflow and only a small amount of water will mess your day up.  That would be a permanent fix and you wouldn’t need to dink around with ratios and math problems (sounds like a quick way for human error to say hello).  The other thing that happened was the alt air light on the annunciator came on.  Meaning the airfilter was clogged (with ice).  And then my gauges went black.  I had multiple problems at the same time.   Could have done without that.  
 

on another note …Happy Thanksgiving.  I have a lot to be thankful for today.

[Mooney_Allegro]

Hello AME LLC!  Wow, what an experience.  It's something I hope never happens again to any of us.  I'm glad you made it down successfully.  Thanks for posting your story and Happy Thanksgiving! 

 

 

[Slick Nick]

3 hours ago, AME LLC said:

I’m not a fan of alcohol. Seems like a bandaid.  I’ve been flying this plane for 10 years.   Did the northern crossing over and back, FL 250, and in icing.  Never had a problem.  I want to see the fuel heated somehow prior to delivery to the fuel flow divider. Or at the fuel flow divider.  The spider sits above the engine.  And isn’t heated like the engine is.  It’s in the cold airflow and only a small amount of water will mess your day up.  That would be a permanent fix and you wouldn’t need to dink around with ratios and math problems (sounds like a quick way for human error to say hello).  The other thing that happened was the alt air light on the annunciator came on.  Meaning the airfilter was clogged (with ice).  And then my gauges went black.  I had multiple problems at the same time.   Could have done without that.  
 

on another note …Happy Thanksgiving.  I have a lot to be thankful for today.

I wonder if something or a combination of things was at work here, might be worth exploring why your engine gauges suddenly blanked out at the same time as the failure. Are you on the stock ignition system?

[A64Pilot]

5 hours ago, AME LLC said:

I’m not a fan of alcohol. Seems like a bandaid.  I’ve been flying this plane for 10 years.   Did the northern crossing over and back, FL 250, and in icing.  Never had a problem.  I want to see the fuel heated somehow prior to delivery to the fuel flow divider. Or at the fuel flow divider.  The spider sits above the engine.  And isn’t heated like the engine is.  It’s in the cold airflow and only a small amount of water will mess your day up.  That would be a permanent fix and you wouldn’t need to dink around with ratios and math problems (sounds like a quick way for human error to say hello).  The other thing that happened was the alt air light on the annunciator came on.  Meaning the airfilter was clogged (with ice).  And then my gauges went black.  I had multiple problems at the same time.   Could have done without that.  
 

on another note …Happy Thanksgiving.  I have a lot to be thankful for today.

For what ever it’s worth the 777 that had the dual engine roll back, the ice clogged the entrance to the fuel heater, very common with turbines for the fuel to be used to cool the oil, this also has the function of heating the fuel before it gets to the fuel control. The ice built up in the fuel lines and assumption is when fuel flow went up and maybe with higher temps, the ice came off of the lines all at once and blocked the oil cooler / fuel heater.

Rolls fix was to make some tubes longer so it would take a stupid amount of ice to block both the short and long tubes.

Point is that sometimes the fix is more involved and harder than we would think, but before you can fix something you need to be real sure of the complete problem, which is very difficult with ice as the evidence pretty quickly disappears.

I agree alcohol is not really a fix, it’s a band aid, but until there is a fix I would apply the band aid myself.

I think possibly the fix is what the Army did decades ago, measure the entrained I think it’s called water and if it’s above some number, remove it before the fuel is dispensed.

Think that could happen at the self serve fuel pumps? 

Edited November 29, 2024 by A64Pilot

[GeeBee]

Reliably, you could put a larger fuel pump on the engine and recirculate a portion of the excess fuel into the tanks to keep the fuel warm. You could also run it through a fuel /oil heat exchanger. Many jets run recirculated hydraulic fluid through a heat exchanger in the tank although that effect is minimal and really just keeps the JetA from waxing out in the tank. Given the systems in a Mooney, or lack of systems the only reliable way to prevent miscible water from icing is alcohol. 

As to BA 38 it was largely the shape of the internal tubes which caused the icing to become an issue. Delta had one do the same thing, but the Captain, Cal Beverly was up on the problem and was did the right thing by commanding less fuel flow thanks to the fact he was at FL390 and was able to drift down on one engine to FL310 where a successful restart was attained.

Another thought on the matter which would require some test flying is to see how much running the boost pump continuously in ultra cold temps would add to system fuel temperature.

[AME LLC]

A couple of things.  Slick nick it’s a recently overhauled engine by Victor Aviation. Firewall forward brand new including the ignition harness. Have about 120 hours on it and the engine runs oh so good.  4 blade MT prop.   Also super smooth.  But a new engine prop combo. 
 

I fly all kinds of stuff.  And I understand jets and oil/fuel heaters etc.  I think this airplane needs that. Working on a heated fuel flow divider.  Cessna 421s have it.  Gonna get it STCd for this plane.  It can be an option/mod. 
 

Knowledgeable opinions (above my pay grade) suggest that the water stayed liquid, suspended in the fuel, (call it supercooled water droplets)  until the fuel flow divider.  What’s that song?  That’s my story and I’m sticking to it…. 

[AME LLC]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Reliably, you could put a larger fuel pump on the engine and recirculate a portion of the excess fuel into the tanks to keep the fuel warm. You could also run it through a fuel /oil heat exchanger. Many jets run recirculated hydraulic fluid through a heat exchanger in the tank although that effect is minimal and really just keeps the JetA from waxing out in the tank. Given the systems in a Mooney, or lack of systems the only reliable way to prevent miscible water from icing is alcohol. 

As to BA 38 it was largely the shape of the internal tubes which caused the icing to become an issue. Delta had one do the same thing, but the Captain, Cal Beverly was up on the problem and was did the right thing by commanding less fuel flow thanks to the fact he was at FL390 and was able to drift down on one engine to FL310 where a successful restart was attained.

Another thought on the matter which would require some test flying is to see how much running the boost pump continuously in ultra cold temps would add to system fuel temperature.

The acclaim climb checklist calls for low boost pump above 18,000 for vapor suppression. So that was on the whole time.   I just learned what the quote button does.  It’s kinda like the reply button..  oh nevermind.