AOPA Asks FAA to Block ADS-B Tracking for Fees

[bcg]

23 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

No, your missing the point.

What you’re saying is true.

But none of that explains the free dissemination to the general public about your where abouts or your activities. My “beef” is the US government freely disbursing what I consider an invasion of privacy and could well be unsafe as in anyone wishing me or mine harm know where I am, and that I won’t be home etc.  Like I said there would be a huge outcry if the Government distributed tracking data about your automobile, why is it different for my aircraft?

I used to overfly Atl from S to N or vice versa quite often VFR, going directly over the center, perhaps it was due to my heading nearly due N or S?

I think the issue is that there isn't really any way to show traffic in the air without making traffic information available to the public.  I want to be able to see traffic when I'm flying so I'm ok with my location being shared.  I guess they could strip the N number and just show a type instead but, it does need to be publicly available information to some extent to be useful to us when flying.

[FlyingDude]

49 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

once you understand that

What makes you think I didn't know that? I've known that all my life! I grew up in Europe, remember? It's just sad to see the last haven lose its beauty...

[IvanP]

2 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

They were bitching and moaning for more money way before covid. I guess with Inflation their squandering also rose by 20%.

Squandering of taxpayers money druing COVID rose far more than overall inflation did. The govt simply used COVID as a magic phrase to justify just about anything, regardless of whether it was actually related to the pandemic or not. Unfortunatley, it seems that majority of voters buy the "its for the children", or "it is necessary to protect public health" phrases included in various bond measures on the ballot and blindly vote for whatever spedning is served to them under the guise of public safety.  

The erroneous perception of elected officials and general public that all arcraft owners are filthy rich and therefore should pay more for everything does not help either. Airport fees will certainly not help GA - training will become even more expensive, etc., Yet another attempt to regulate and tax GA out of existence. Those folks who fly GA in Europe know this all too well. Too bad this is making its way to our airports. 

[Jim Peace]

9 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Everything and I mean everything cost 20% more than it did 3 years ago,

Are you saying elections have consequences? 

[wombat]

9 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

If anyone is interested this is one way, cost more than $50 a yr as there are a couple of other fees and your airplane is registered as a Montanna aircraft, you get a sticker to put on it. It’s surely less than $100, I honestly haven’t kept track

The service is set up as a tax dodge for Motorhomes and it works for that, but depending on your State it may not for Aircraft (different rules)

https://www.49dollarmontanaregisteredagent.com/?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADcPHQHObgenCOfU_LTzQKyK1gVit&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4rHctPLEiAMVSJ5aBR3aUznlEAAYASAAEgI4jfD_BwE

You can register it as a Montana aircraft but in at least California and Washington, if you spend more than a relatively low amount of time in the state  (I believe it's 90 days in WA) you are legally required to register it in that state and pay use tax on it.     While I totally support paying less taxes if you can do so legally, registering it only in Montana is just illegal.  No different from lying on a sales receipt or paying cash to employees to avoid taxes.   

Not that I have any heartache with people committing some crimes.  I too have been known to violate the statues of man.  (Credit: Buster Scruggs)    But if you want to break the law, you should know that you are doing it.

[skykrawler]

On 9/13/2024 at 11:09 PM, NickG said:

I’m the AOPA AVN at KHND in Las Vegas. Unfortunately Las Vegas and the Clark County Dept of Airports have been the pioneers in the completely unreasonable “Special Event Fees”. AOPA is very active in fighting all of these attempts to squeeze GA.

They weren't pioneers.   I had to pay an event fee at St Augustine 5 years ago parking there for The Payers (event was canceled after the first round).   Still had to schlep our bags across the ramp from a distant spot.

10 years ago I received a landing fee bill in the mail from a New Jersey airport (Essex) - as recorded by the tower - 30 days later.

[NickG]

1 hour ago, skykrawler said:

They weren't pioneers.   I had to pay an event fee at St Augustine 5 years ago parking there for The Payers (event was canceled after the first round).   Still had to schlep our bags across the ramp from a distant spot.

10 years ago I received a landing fee bill in the mail from a New Jersey airport (Essex) - as recorded by the tower - 30 days later.

I said Pioneeers in the “unreasonable” event fees. Mind you, all event fees are “unreasonable”

[dkkim73]

16 hours ago, IvanP said:

 Unfortunatley, it seems that majority of voters buy the "its for the children", or "it is necessary to protect public health"

....

The erroneous perception of elected officials and general public that all arcraft owners are filthy rich and therefore should pay more for everything does not help either. Airport fees will certainly not help GA - training will become even more expensive, etc., Yet another attempt to regulate and tax GA out of existence. Those folks who fly GA in Europe know this all too well. Too bad this is making its way to our airports. 

1. What's ironic is that children were grossly underserved by that whole response. This is one of the most anti-child corporate-government regimes in my memory. 

2. At root, GA as we know it is fundamentally a private, conservative, almost libertarian thing. It's a form of freedom of movement. Like the old "American road trip" ideal of decades past, free access to roads and movement as a form of assembly. Once the core value of such activity is devalued or "ceded" to practical concerns, it is just a matter of time. It's not hard to envision a pitch that "The State will determine what pilots are needed, and provide training according to State selection criteria, and (blah blah insert central planning language here)". "Why should you be allowed to fly a plane?!? You're not an *expert*!". 

There are a lot of little chisely techno-rent seekers looking to make a buck by automating a process for squeezing out every last transactional dime. "We're adding effiency!". Yeah, sure you are. Real societal net good. Completely optimized society with individual pricing. They know the price of everything, but the value of nothing. 

[Fly Boomer]

On 9/15/2024 at 7:34 AM, A64Pilot said:

being Retired I can tell you it cuts into play time

It’s just how inflation works

And my raises don't seem to keep up.  Or maybe my raises do keep up, but they used to put me further and further ahead -- days gone but not forgotten.

[A64Pilot]

17 hours ago, wombat said:

You can register it as a Montana aircraft but in at least California and Washington, if you spend more than a relatively low amount of time in the state  (I believe it's 90 days in WA) you are legally required to register it in that state and pay use tax on it.     While I totally support paying less taxes if you can do so legally, registering it only in Montana is just illegal.  No different from lying on a sales receipt or paying cash to employees to avoid taxes.   

Not that I have any heartache with people committing some crimes.  I too have been known to violate the statues of man.  (Credit: Buster Scruggs)    But if you want to break the law, you should know that you are doing it.

Having an LLC  in Montana and having the aircraft an asset of that LLC isn’t seemingly illegal even in California based on what you said, but not Registering in California if your there over some amount of time is. Boats for example that are in Fl for over 90 days are required to resister in Fl and display the FL sticker, that doesn’t trip a tax though as Fl doesn’t tax boats, so I don’t know why they are required to register, registration isn’t free, but it’s not a lot of money either. Even USCG registered boats which usually skip the State thing have to register in Fl if they stay.

However if you have your airplane in the State of Fl for over some number of days (whatever it is it’s not long) then Fl will tax you, and it’s a significant amount of money, they use Flight aware as one way of finding you. That is why I said the Montana registration will not get you out of Fl aircraft taxes, but does a Motorhome, because out of State Motorhomes can apparently stay in Fl for as long as they want without tripping any kind of tax, just like boats can.

Many, I bet most States don’t register aircraft.

https://advocatetax.com/2017/08/21/do-i-have-to-register-my-aircraft-with-the-state-it-is-based-in/

Bottom line, Tax or not varies both by State and type of vehicle as does registration. But most States don’t even register aircraft I assume since they are Federally registered they don’t see the need.

So just because you think having a Montana LLC is illegal in California, you shouldn’t make a blanket statement that’s it’s illegal everywhere.  I suspect it’s not illegal,even in California, but if California requires registration if you stay, then that defeats the anonymity point.

I’ve paid Fl sales tax on my aircraft and on everything I own, the purpose of me registering in Montana isn’t to beat the tax, it’s to keep some idiot from obtaining my personal information even my address.

 

Edited September 16 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

17 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

Are you saying elections have consequences? 

I do my best to try not to make any kind of political statements because I have seen them ruin other Forums and don’t want that here, so if any think any post I have made is political I assure you they aren’t. I’d delete it if I could but it’s been quoted and I can’t delete those.

[A64Pilot]

34 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

And my raises don't seem to keep up.  Or maybe my raises do keep up, but they used to put me further and further ahead -- days gone but not forgotten.

Wait until you’re Retired and don’t get raises. 

I’m old enough to remember how bad it was in the early 80’s Retired people were losing housing and eating pet food because that’s all they could afford due to inflation. Those of us that were adults back then fear inflation.

I believed recently the worst it got was 9%, the 20% number is cumulative over the three years. In 1980 it peaked at over 13% banks were failing, unemployment was higher than any time except during the Great Depression. It was the reason I joined the Army in 1982, there were NO jobs in the oilfield, not even convince stores, I was a newly married kid and had to provide.

From Wikipedia The prime interest rate, an important economic measure, eventually reached 21.5% in June 1982.^[30][40]

^{Try buying a house when the Prime rate is 21.5% because you can’t get prime. I don’t remember the number because I couldn’t afford it but I think home loans were around 25%?}

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_1980s_recession#:~:text=By 1979%2C inflation reached a,end of the next recession.

Edited September 16 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

You know ADSB isn’t really my “issue” I know why the N number is imbedded in it, it’s for enforcement, just like we all drive around with tags on our cars, for enforcement. Cop stops you, he “runs”the tag and knows all about you before he walks up to the car. I don’t have an issue with that, BECAUSE it’s not freely available to everyone with internet access.

However the Feds make personal data available, listed under our N number. Why? How does that serve the public?

They simply need to remove the personal data, everything else they can leave, how hard could that be?

Then I could delete the LLC that “owns” my airplane, it’s a minor expense, but one I’d rather do without.

Edited September 16 by A64Pilot

[201Mooniac]

I've seen several references to registering your plane in California.  I live in California for 32 years now and have owned an airplane for 29 of those.  I've never registered my plane in California, only with the FAA.  I do pay property taxes to the county the plane is based at but there is no registration I'm aware of.  Am I missing something I've been supposed to do?

[dkkim73]

While I appreciate the convenience of Flight Aware for tracking random flights, it is not clear to me why some obfuscation or encoding couldn't be applied to limit data sharing with entities not operationally involved in the flight. 

Eg other planes see you, but generic types show up, if anything, to the general public. 

One could always do correlation analysis etc, but it would prevent some leakage. 

OTOH revenuers will push for exemptions/access. Probably needs to be fought legislatively or in the courts. 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

Eg other planes see you, but generic types show up, if anything, to the general public. 

If it isn't encrypted or otherwise secured, the public can decode it just as easily as the other airplanes.   This is why you can receive it with a Raspberry Pi and decode it.   It would be difficult to deploy a system that provided security to only ATC and all other airplanes and still be either manageable or reasonably secure.   In other words, it makes sense to transmit everything in the clear and there are some advantages to doing so.   The anonymity can be attained by changing what's transmitted, rather than encrypting the signal, which is already routinely done.

 

[dkkim73]

11 minutes ago, EricJ said:

If it isn't encrypted or otherwise secured, the public can decode it just as easily as the other airplanes.   This is why you can receive it with a Raspberry Pi and decode it.   It would be difficult to deploy a system that provided security to only ATC and all other airplanes and still be either manageable or reasonably secure.   In other words, it makes sense to transmit everything in the clear and there are some advantages to doing so.   The anonymity can be attained by changing what's transmitted, rather than encrypting the signal, which is already routinely done.

 

Yes, I was getting at some encryption. There would be ways to provide a moderate level of security. Unfortunately, that would require different software which would effectively require "different" approved installations and not be free. 

There are advantages to openness in a benign environment, for sure. 

[NickG]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Having an LLC  in Montana and having the aircraft an asset of that LLC isn’t seemingly illegal even in California based on what you said, but not Registering in California if your there over some amount of time is. Boats for example that are in Fl for over 90 days are required to resister in Fl and display the FL sticker, that doesn’t trip a tax though as Fl doesn’t tax boats, so I don’t know why they are required to register, registration isn’t free, but it’s not a lot of money either. Even USCG registered boats which usually skip the State thing have to register in Fl if they stay.

However if you have your airplane in the State of Fl for over some number of days (whatever it is it’s not long) then Fl will tax you, and it’s a significant amount of money, they use Flight aware as one way of finding you. That is why I said the Montana registration will not get you out of Fl aircraft taxes, but does a Motorhome, because out of State Motorhomes can apparently stay in Fl for as long as they want without tripping any kind of tax, just like boats can.

Many, I bet most States don’t register aircraft.

https://advocatetax.com/2017/08/21/do-i-have-to-register-my-aircraft-with-the-state-it-is-based-in/

Bottom line, Tax or not varies both by State and type of vehicle as does registration. But most States don’t even register aircraft I assume since they are Federally registered they don’t see the need.

So just because you think having a Montana LLC is illegal in California, you shouldn’t make a blanket statement that’s it’s illegal everywhere.  I suspect it’s not illegal,even in California, but if California requires registration if you stay, then that defeats the anonymity point.

I’ve paid Fl sales tax on my aircraft and on everything I own, the purpose of me registering in Montana isn’t to beat the tax, it’s to keep some idiot from obtaining my personal information even my address.

 

Registering your aircraft in Florida will expose you to Florida taxes. However, the taxes you pay are calculated by "apportionment" and they will only tax you based on a percentage of value calculated by how long you are flying in Florida airspace as you EGRESS the state. I know, sounds crazy but that's how they do it. 

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, 201Mooniac said:

I've seen several references to registering your plane in California.  I live in California for 32 years now and have owned an airplane for 29 of those.  I've never registered my plane in California, only with the FAA.  I do pay property taxes to the county the plane is based at but there is no registration I'm aware of.  Am I missing something I've been supposed to do?

I’ve had a plane in Texas for about the same period of time. I have never registered my plane  with the state, county or city yet it appears on the county Central Appraisal District property listing.  It’s been there on the county CAD list pre-Internet and pre-ADS – B.
It doesn’t make much sense to blame ADS-B when the real issue is that you don’t like your local tax rate. 

[201Mooniac]

9 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

I’ve had a plane in Texas for about the same period of time. I have never registered my plane  with the state, county or city yet it appears on the county Central Appraisal District property listing.  It’s been there on the county CAD list pre-Internet and pre-ADS – B.
It doesn’t make much sense to blame ADS-B when the real issue is that you don’t like your local tax rate. 

I'm also on the county assessment list but that is because of my hangar lease, not because of registration or ADS-B.

[Paul Thomas]

17 minutes ago, NickG said:

Registering your aircraft in Florida will expose you to Florida taxes. However, the taxes you pay are calculated by "apportionment" and they will only tax you based on a percentage of value calculated by how long you are flying in Florida airspace as you EGRESS the state. I know, sounds crazy but that's how they do it. 

The tax in FL is only triggered if you bring the airplane in the state within the first six months of ownership.

I read the rules and called them when I bought the airplane this year. I would owe zero tax if I bought the airplane out of state, used my FL address with the FAA, and kept the airplane out of FL for the first six month. I would owe the full tax if the airplane was bought out of state, the FAA had an out of state address, but I brought the airplane to FL before the six month expired.

[Hank]

When I was based in OH, across the river from WV, small airplane tax was $14/seat.

The last few years in AL, taxes are bases on value, just like cars, and I've been paying $200. Valuation was increased this spring . . .

So taxes are paid, but no "registration" per se--noplate, tag, sticker, decal, etc., to display and refresh, although my boat.and dog both have them . . . .

[201Mooniac]

33 minutes ago, Hank said:

So taxes are paid, but no "registration" per se--noplate, tag, sticker, decal, etc., to display and refresh, although my boat.and dog both have them . . . .

Do you get taxed for the dog?

[CCAS]

Does anyone have first-hand experience petitioning the FAA through their Limiting Aircraft Data Displayed (LADD) program to restrict displaying your registration number via ADS-B? 
 

https://www.faa.gov/pilots/ladd

 

[Hank]

7 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

Do you get taxed for the dog?

There is a fee (tax?) for the tag, paid to the county . . . And there is a fee for the tag on my car, in addition to ad valorem tax, paid some to the state and some to the county. . . There is only ad valorem tax for the Mooney, paid to the county where it is based (which is not the county where I reside).