anything will do!

[Pinecone]

Yes, an extra 2 inches of seat pitch is helpful if you are above median height.  It is the difference between your knees touching or not.

Seat width hasn't changed on the narrow bodies, but it sure has one wide body jets.  It started at 3 - 3 - 3 and most are now 3 - 4 - 3.  That extra seat makes a huge difference.

I started flying commercial in the 50s, when women wore dresses and stockings and heels.  And men wore jacket and tie.

 

[1980Mooney]

On 7/3/2024 at 12:21 PM, flyboy0681 said:

Not sure if all the whining is warranted.... The flying public is another matter, but this only started happening over the past decade and got exponentially worse during Covid when forced to wear masks.

 

On 7/5/2024 at 11:03 AM, Pinecone said:

Yes, an extra 2 inches of seat pitch is helpful if you are above median height.  It is the difference between your knees touching or not.

Seat width hasn't changed on the narrow bodies, but it sure has one wide body jets.  It started at 3 - 3 - 3 and most are now 3 - 4 - 3.  That extra seat makes a huge difference.

I started flying commercial in the 50s, when women wore dresses and stockings and heels.  And men wore jacket and tie.

Not sure all the whining is warranted either.  The biggest cause of seating problems is staring you right in the mirror.

• The average adult male in the US has gone from 166 lbs. in 1960 to 200+ lbs. in 2020 (self reported in 2020 so reality probably higher...and I bet that the data is skewed low because the really heavy probably don't self report)
• The average adult female has gone from 140 lbs. in 1960 to 171 lbs. now.  (self reported in 2020 so reported probably delusionarily low...and skewed low by the really heavy that are shamed and don't want to self report their obesity.)  My memory may be failing but school girls back in the 60's were generally thin as rails.  Today out in public they are absolutely huge.  I bet Gen Z and Alpha females will average closer to 200 lbs. as mature adults.

Go to the grocery meat section and look at 35 lbs. of fatty meat.  Or 4 gallon jugs of water.  Where does all that fit in your airline seat now days?

It's the same problem with legacy aircraft.  Mooney was asleep at the wheel when they failed to widen the cabin during the Ultra steel frame redesign for 2 doors. (at least for front seats as a minimum)

Maybe Mooney was counting on Wegovy, Ozempic, Zepbound, Mounjaro and Saxenda to solve our nation's obesity problem...

Edited July 6 by 1980Mooney

[A64Pilot]

I used to fly a lot for Business and I won’t fly Commercial anymore unless there is no other way. I haven’t since I retired.

The airplane is just part of it, sure maybe the seats aren’t much smaller but back in the 70’s only half the seats were filled on average, now they overbook so most often it’s packed.

Trailways, Greyhound etc have gone out of business pretty much and those people now fly is one part of the issue. Today on the news apparently one aircraft had an emergency landing from a Pax urinating in the aisle https://www.businessinsider.com/american-airlines-flight-diverted-man-exposed-himself-urinated-aisle-2024-7#:~:text=A 25-year-old man exposed himself and peed in,incidents on board commercial flights. 

That kind of nonsense is common today, and unheard of a couple of decades ago. Yes that’s society not the airlines, but I choose I guess to avoid 21st Century society because I’m not impressed.

Fat old, ugly “cabin crew” is part of it just as Transvestites or whatever they are called today as crew is another part

But the airplane is just part, the airport and security etc is a huge part of it. moving through huge lines like cattle in a slaughter house, walking in your socks on a nasty floor, is carpet strips too much to ask for?

Finally being told to arrive at the airport five hours before departure is icing on the cake.

I choose not to be treated that way and to not associate myself with the kind of people that fly today.

[Pinecone]

I would not say that things like people urinating in the aisle or even being belligerent is common.  It just makes the cut for the 24 hour news cycle.  In the past, it would not make the evening news.  Maybe a side piece in the late night.

I flew a LOT in my job, and never saw any such incidents. And includes flying 3rd world airlines.  But I will say, on those, I never took off my shoes.
 

[flyboy0681]

2 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

I would not say that things like people urinating in the aisle or even being belligerent is common.  It just makes the cut for the 24 hour news cycle.  In the past, it would not make the evening news.  Maybe a side piece in the late night.

I flew a LOT in my job, and never saw any such incidents. And includes flying 3rd world airlines.  But I will say, on those, I never took off my shoes.
 

Remove alcohol from the equation and the numbers would most certainly drop. My take on it is that the carriers generate a lot of money from those little bottles and cans.

[Pinecone]

I think that the problem is more pre-gaming versus being served on the flight.  These days, they make one pass on domestic flights and will not sell you a bunch. 

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

back in the 70’s only half the seats were filled on average

Back in the 70s, I was once on a flight all by myself.  Only reason I can think of for that leg was to reposition the airplane.  The economical decision would have been to cancel the flight.

[Pinecone]

I had a short flight like that.  CVG to DAY.  I am sure that other days, they have passengers.  And not sure if any got on for the next leg.

[Will.iam]

The sad reality is that the poorer the clientele the less etiquette they have. When airline prices were priced to where only middle to upper class could afford to travel they were also with manners and didn’t do urine in the isle or crap in the sink. Once the airlines raced to the bottom for the lowest fare to afford lower economic class to fly they come with their values as well. I mean think about it if they have an outhouse and peeing on any tree is the norm then peeing in the isle or crapping in the sink is no different for them. 

[amillet]

On 7/1/2024 at 2:09 PM, EricJ said:

I haven't been on an airliner for a long time, but when I did I'd lean my sat back!    We're rebels. 

If I’m behind you (6’3”) I jam my knees into the back of your seat (they’re within a half inch of the upright position anyway) so you can’t recline 

[Hank]

9 minutes ago, amillet said:

If I’m behind you (6’3”) I jam my knees into the back of your seat (they’re within a half inch of the upright position anyway) so you can’t recline 

If everyone reclines, then all have the same space.

[amillet]

Just now, Hank said:

If everyone reclines, then all have the same space.

No, I have to splay my legs open if the seat in front of me is reclined.  

[PeterRus]

 

[flyboy0681]

On 7/6/2024 at 2:16 PM, A64Pilot said:

I used to fly a lot for Business and I won’t fly Commercial anymore unless there is no other way. I haven’t since I retired.

The airplane is just part of it, sure maybe the seats aren’t much smaller but back in the 70’s only half the seats were filled on average, now they overbook so most often it’s packed.

 

Do you have a cutoff point on cost? For example, would you fly the Mooney from your location in Florida to Dallas or Phoenix, where commercial would be considerably cheaper?

[Fly Boomer]

25 minutes ago, PeterRus said:

 

Ha!  No reclining required -- or allowed for that matter.  I love when she pushes the button "good flight Mr. Dallas".  Boom.  He's gone.

[M20F]

I spent 18 months and 200-300hrs being a Mooney road warrior.  I enjoyed parts, I am happily though back to EXP on AA.  

I just enjoyed a wonderful flight on AS back to ATL from SFO (thanks STF/TFL for diner).  During this flight I consumed enough free booze to pay for two oil changes in the Mooney (* CamGuard excluded, other limitations and conditions may apply, any post by M20F is not to be considered sane nor legally binding).

Their champagne was weaker in quality than what I serve on the Mooney, but I could drink it and I didn’t have to hold my fist over the heater outlet to warm the nut medley. 
 

 

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, flyboy0681 said:

Do you have a cutoff point on cost? For example, would you fly the Mooney from your location in Florida to Dallas or Phoenix, where commercial would be considerably cheaper?

Yes I would, but I just don’t anymore. Being Retired I’d likely take the Motorhome, which costs more than the Mooney and would likely take three days, but as I’m Retired what does time matter? 

For me the Journey is part of the point, it’s not just getting there. For instance 20 years or so ago I flew the family in our Maule up to Tuktoyoktuk to dip our toes in the Arctic Ocean, and stopped many places along the way and saw and did things you just can’t flying Commercial. Took a month there and back I think.

In truth I have little to no interest going where Commercial flights are cheaper. But then I HATE crowds, it’s not a phobia or anything but I can’t imagine being on a cruise ship for example.

I live within four miles or so of “The Villages” most that live there I think like it, I wouldn’t be able to tolerate it as everything about it is crowded. I’m the type that has to live in the Country to be happy

[A64Pilot]

There are many current and some Retired Airline guys in my neighborhood, according to them it’s pretty bad as in pax behavior, much worse than even just before the “Pandemic”. I think Society in general took a huge dive then for whatever reason.

[M20F]

4 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

There are many current and some Retired Airline guys in my neighborhood, according to them it’s pretty bad as in pax behavior, much worse than even just before the “Pandemic”. I think Society in general took a huge dive then for whatever reason.

Yes, as a 35yr EXP would have to say the cabin crew took a huge dive.