EarthX Battery

[EricJ]

7 hours ago, EarthX Inc said:

So again I ask, what engineering data do you have to support the need for 30+ amp hour battery?

 

It's not about engineering data, it's that people know what their reserve time is for their existing batteries and have often developed basic contingency planning based on that reserve time.   Asking someone to cut that time to a fraction of what they're used to planning for is not a trivial thing, especially since it is a safety margin.

That shouldn't be difficult to understand.

[Pinecone]

11 hours ago, EricJ said:

It's not about engineering data, it's that people know what their reserve time is for their existing batteries and have often developed basic contingency planning based on that reserve time.   Asking someone to cut that time to a fraction of what they're used to planning for is not a trivial thing, especially since it is a safety margin.

That shouldn't be difficult to understand.

Especially since doubling the capacity would still give a nice weight decrease.

[MikeOH]

21 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I don’t have a dog in this fight. I’m merely interested observer. it seems to me your statement is not entirely true. It’s not that the amp hour rating is interior so much is the battery type being used. How do you suggest they create a lifepo4 battery that fits within the systems current (cca) specifications and still has the capacity of an AGM battery? 
 

We live in good times… when our airplanes were delivered they had crappy wet cell batteries that would barely break 250 CCA and 20 ah. 

Hmm, "no dog in the fight"...coulda fooled me (But the EarthX rep has gotta love you!)

I fail to see how the fact EarthX can't create a battery that "fits within the systems current specifications and still has the capacity of an AGM" becomes my problem to "suggest"???  Isn't it the point of "new technology" to provide a BETTER solution?  Ignoring those parameters that are inferior (half capacity!) just because one "likes" the new tech doesn't seem very logical.

And, I must point out that even those old "crappy wet cell batteries" provided nearly a third MORE capacity than this new tech battery (20A vs. 15.6A)

I keep harping on this because IMHO giving up a safety margin is NOT smart.  Sure, you can argue improbabilities all you want but ask yourself if you do have an alternator failure in IMC would you rather have 1 hour or 30 mins of electrons?  This is a lot like a fuel reserve to me: the law says 30 min (day VFR) but I use 1 hour.  

[EarthX Inc]

22 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Flying safely is all about good judgement and risk mitigation and is NOT merely about 'engineering data'.

Your continued insistence that having HALF the time available to a pilot should his alternator fail in IMC is somehow perfectly okay is NOT persuasive!  It is a complete antithesis to risk mitigation and the exercise of good aeronautical decision making.  You are making excuses for your product's inferior Amp-hour capacity.

 

I want to thank all of you that have reached out directly to us this past week and we are always happy to answer your questions, please don’t hesitate to contact us any time we can be of assistance. (sales@earthxbatteries.com or 970.674.8884)

We agreed to participate in this forum by request to add expertise directly from the manufacturer.  We know few readers reply to a post, but we know there are many reading this, so we invested time for your benefit.  

With over 12 million flight hours and counting, with tens of thousands of aircraft in the skies currently using EarthX batteries, teams of DER’s, DAR’s, ODA’s, electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, aerospace engineers, experts on aircraft design, engine experts (the largest engine manufacture in the world, Rotax, private labels the EarthX brand) we are confident and  proud to offer a well-designed, safe, and highly reliable FAA TSO STC approved lithium battery alternative to the GA market and this new technology brings many advantages.

We do have confidence in engineering data, empirical data, and historical data and pilots using good judgment as we believe they go together.  We also expect pilots to adhere to procedure and training for the safety of all.

On a personal note, from a person who shares the skies with my own Mooney and has many commercial pilots who are friends and family, disregarding and ignoring emergency procedures is not flying safely, nor good judgement, nor prudent risk mitigation and it puts everyone at risk.

Your aircraft is designed to avoid single points of failure. Your alternator is your primary source of power with the starter battery as back up. (If you are flying IFR, your equipment will also have back up power).  In the rare event of your alternator or battery failing, you are to “land as soon as practical” and shed to emergency load. The EarthX battery is designed to provide 210% more energy than the minimum requirements set forth by the FAA in the Mooney which is over 1.5 hours of time for you to find a practical place to land.

If you choose to continue to fly and not follow emergency procedures, then you should use engineering data to calculate how much energy you will need to get where you want to go as even the Concorde with double the Ah may not be enough for you.   

 

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, EarthX Inc said:

Your aircraft is designed to avoid single points of failure. Your alternator is your primary source of power with the starter battery as back up. (If you are flying IFR, your equipment will also have back up power).  In the rare event of your alternator or battery failing, you are to “land as soon as practical” and shed to emergency load. The EarthX battery is designed to provide 210% more energy than the minimum requirements set forth by the FAA in the Mooney which is over 1.5 hours of time for you to find a practical place to land.

If you choose to continue to fly and not follow emergency procedures, then you should use engineering data to calculate how much energy you will need to get where you want to go as even the Concorde with double the Ah may not be enough for you.   

 

Our plane is LED and Garmin everything and it still draws about 15A. My neighbors plane is older and it draws 22A.  A 16AH battery isnt going to last 1.5 hours. 

And its not about droning on and on intentionally after alternator failure in IFR. However, just like reasonable fuel and oil capacity and reserves, the more you have the better you're going to be. Yes you pay a useful load decrease, but I also pay that weight penalty with Bendix 1200 magnetos, and the old-school tractor starter because those things are all bulletproof.

More reserve capacity is more conservative.

However, VFR, you can fly 2 hours vs 1 hour to complete the mission or to find a more suitable airport for repairs.  This just happened to me a couple weeks ago. I would have missed OSH if I had your battery onboard. Instead, I continued to PWK Chicago for repairs, and started it up and proceeded on. Alternator or not I would still been able to go.

Also, there's there's no Kathy Nichoson in the FAA Airman registry. I thought it rather unique to be getting flying lessons in aeronautical decision making lessons from somebody who is not a certificated pilot.

[aerolithium]

3 hours ago, EarthX Inc said:

The EarthX battery is designed to provide 210% more energy than the minimum requirements set forth by the FAA in the Mooney which is over 1.5 hours of time

So... what ARE the minimum "energy " requirements set forth by the FAA for the Mooney ?? in watt-hours...

[LANCECASPER]

Chasing away vendors from Mooneyspace is not a great idea. When Trio Autopilots came on here a few years ago looking for their next project and got chased away, instead of starting on the Mooney for their next certified project they decided to start on the Grumman AA5B and  got it done. 

[MikeOH]

14 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Chasing away vendors from Mooneyspace is not a great idea. When Trio Autopilots came on here a few years ago looking for their next project and got chased away, instead of starting on the Mooney for their next certified project they decided to start on the Grumman AA5B and  got it done. 

1) When did MS start allowing/promoting vendors to 'advertise' in other than Trading Post?

2) Since when is raising valid concerns (HALF the battery Amp-hours) "chasing off" anyone?  Something about 'heat' and 'kitchens' comes to mind.  That is NOT 'chasing off' but sharing BOTH the good and bad.  Or should any bad views/opinions just be censored?  I should hope it doesn't come to that here.

[BlueSky247]

Well, I’d sure like to try one in my new to me J. I’d really like it if there was some way to legally add a second one to have some awesome redundancy like a lot of boats do it. 

[IvanP]

23 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Chasing away vendors from Mooneyspace is not a great idea. When Trio Autopilots came on here a few years ago looking for their next project and got chased away, instead of starting on the Mooney for their next certified project they decided to start on the Grumman AA5B and  got it done. 

Well said. While this product may not be suitable for everyone's needs or wants, there is no reason for attacking the vendor. After all, thee is seldom a solution that fits all needs in aviation or life in general. The decision on what battery or other equipment will be installed is up to each owner/operator who will have to live with the consequences of his/her decisions. 

[EricJ]

22 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Chasing away vendors from Mooneyspace is not a great idea. When Trio Autopilots came on here a few years ago looking for their next project and got chased away, instead of starting on the Mooney for their next certified project they decided to start on the Grumman AA5B and  got it done. 

Chasing away a vendor is one thing, but a vendor getting defensive in the face of reasonable questions is another.   Even if the questions get toward the unreasonable end, this is an internet forum, where that really is the expectation and I'm always of the mind that a vendor should be aware of that and prepared for it.   If they're not, I think that's more on the vendor than on the forum, even though unreasonableness is always something one hopes people will avoid.   It's not good to put money on those hopes, though.

I'm not sure that Trio going away was a horrible loss to the community.   They don't seem to be doing much anywhere else, either.   That seemed to me to be another case of the vendor just getting overly defensive when they didn't need to.

This forum seems pretty well behaved compared to many or even most than I've been exposed to.    

[Pinecone]

I am not trying to push anyone away.

Just saying, if they came out with a 22 or 33 amp version, I would be looking to buy one.

[exM20K]

I found none of @EarthX Inc’s responses to be defensive. I did find them informative.  I did not know that the certification standard is CCA rather than amp-hours, and thus the AGM batteries have excess amp-hours to meet the CCA certification standard (if I am following along correctly).

So advocating for 90 mins of battery life vs 45 is, to me, akin to Cirrus needing a BRS to meet certification standards and turning that into a safety benefit that other airplanes lack and are, therefore, inferior. The BRS/higher amp-hours as a beneficial feature may not be wrong, but it is an accidental capability. I know, there is controversy about the cirrus CAPS not being needed for certification, but it’s not that different.

My POH says “land as soon as practicable” in the even of an alternator failure, and I’m glad @jetdriven was able to complete his trip to OSH, and I hope he didn’t have to use local shops at PWK $$$. But the battery as a continuation-of-flight device when an alternator fails is rare. What about being able to carry an additional 5 gallons of fuel or 30# of payload?  Those are not one-off benefits.  Those benefits exist on every flight. YMMV.

Yes, Internet forums can be a rough neighborhood, sometimes with malice and sometimes with misunderstanding.  But I’d hope we would strive to do better and to welcome a vendor who is putting themselves out there to make a better mousetrap that may benefit none, some, or all of us.  

And yes, it would be good if @EarthX Inc would join as a supporter of the site.

Safe travels to all on this holiday weekend in the US.

-dan

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Chasing away vendors from Mooneyspace is not a great idea. When Trio Autopilots came on here a few years ago looking for their next project and got chased away, instead of starting on the Mooney for their next certified project they decided to start on the Grumman AA5B and  got it done. 

If Trio wanted to certify autopilots for Mooney, they would’ve had plenty of interest. They just could not get it done.

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, IvanP said:

Well said. While this product may not be suitable for everyone's needs or wants, there is no reason for attacking the vendor. After all, thee is seldom a solution that fits all needs in aviation or life in general. The decision on what battery or other equipment will be installed is up to each owner/operator who will have to live with the consequences of his/her decisions. 

Who is attacking who? I would buy one of these things if it had approximately the same amp hours that the battery I have. I think it’s a very valid concern.

[Hank]

5 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Who is attacking who? I would buy one of these things if it had approximately the same amp hours that the battery I have. I think it’s a very valid concern.

I'm thinking hard about buying one when my RG35-ACX needs replacement. Yaay, @EarthX Inc! Go Approval! Everything I have except the GPS and radios will run without power anyway, and I can crank the gear down by hand if needed (BTDT, nobody gave me a t shirt).

On the other hand, getting 25 lb off of my firewall is a great benefit to both useful load and CG!

[jetdriven]

32 minutes ago, exM20K said:

I found none of @EarthX Inc’s responses to be defensive. I did find them informative.  I did not know that the certification standard is CCA rather than amp-hours, and thus the AGM batteries have excess amp-hours to meet the CCA certification standard (if I am following along correctly).

So advocating for 90 mins of battery life vs 45 is, to me, akin to Cirrus needing a BRS to meet certification standards and turning that into a safety benefit that other airplanes lack and are, therefore, inferior. The BRS/higher amp-hours as a beneficial feature may not be wrong, but it is an accidental capability. I know, there is controversy about the cirrus CAPS not being needed for certification, but it’s not that different.

My POH says “land as soon as practicable” in the even of an alternator failure, and I’m glad @jetdriven was able to complete his trip to OSH, and I hope he didn’t have to use local shops at PWK $$$. But the battery as a continuation-of-flight device when an alternator fails is rare. What about being able to carry an additional 5 gallons of fuel or 30# of payload?  Those are not one-off benefits.  Those benefits exist on every flight. YMMV.

Yes, Internet forums can be a rough neighborhood, sometimes with malice and sometimes with misunderstanding.  But I’d hope we would strive to do better and to welcome a vendor who is putting themselves out there to make a better mousetrap that may benefit none, some, or all of us.  

And yes, it would be good if @EarthX Inc would join as a supporter of the site.

Safe travels to all on this holiday weekend in the US.

-dan

Actually, I think you should have two separate alternators and a reasonable battery, but you only have one alternator and in my 1200 hours of flyong my airplane at 14 years. I’ve had 4 alternator failures. Two of the field wire breaking, one was the output wire left loose by the installer which arced and melted away,  and one was the output wire breaking. Interestingly we’ve never had a belt failure. And we seen some really shitty belts come through that are still turning the alternator. But it happens, and the alternator is your second electricity source. Sometimes you fly at night, sometimes you fly in the clouds, and sometimes you fly them further than 30 minutes away from the nearest suitable airport, and I think it really matters. How are you gonna click the runway lights on at night to turn them on? . And are you really gonna stop 30 miles short of your destination where you’re based at where you can deal with this problem better? Here’s the deal, bring something to market that’s actually better,  and  I agree it’s better technology, but it’s simply the wrong size for the application. And the case of the Cirrus it’s actually bigger than the application so it’s like better in every regard, and I applaud those who take the initiative to buy the thing. But don’t try to sell me half a cup of tea at 1.5 times the  price.  And don’t school me about ADM when you’re not even a licensed pilot at all. Maybe I got this wrong, but I did look. You can look my name up too, It’s there.

[MikeOH]

@jetdriven

I tried to like your post twice, but it wouldn't let me!

[Utah20Gflyer]

I don’t really get why people get so offended by a product someone is offering but they don’t want.  You don’t have to buy it, and the fact that they have different objectives for that product than you do doesn’t mean they are spitting in your face.    
 

I fly a G model in the western mountains.  Because I don’t have a turbo and FIKI my ability to fly IFR in my area is extremely limited.  The G model has one of the lowest gross weights of all the Mooneys.   So guess what? Weight is very important to me and Amp hour capacity is not very important.   Especially since my starting battery is not my only backup for my avionics.  My ADM is different and my own.   Each of you have your own missions and each manufacturer has their own products.  

 

No one is trying to force anyone to buy an EarthX battery.  If you love the concord battery then great, keep buying those.  If you truly feel EarthX made a mistake in the way they designed their product then make your own improved version and see how it does in the market.  

 

[vik]

Before saying that EarthX LFP battery has half the capacity of Concorde RG-35 or Gill G-35 lead acid batteries go test the real capacity of your two-three years old lead acid battery. You will be unpleasantly surprised. Maybe that is why the NEW lead acid battery has to have 33 Ah.

Another thing to consider is that many, if not most, of the radios will stop working when voltage drops below 10V. Now look at the LFP and lead acid batteries voltage charts. You will have a better idea which chemistry will cut your navigation/communication first.

I know people who fly hard IFR all the time and replace lead acid battery during every annual. Real world experience is priceless! There is a good reason to treat a lead acid battery just like the motor oil. Yes, it still works and cranks, but, as usual, the devil is in the details.

Vik

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, vik said:

Before saying that EarthX LFP battery has half the capacity of Concorde RG-35 or Gill G-35 lead acid batteries go test the real capacity of your two-three years old lead acid battery. You will be unpleasantly surprised. Maybe that is why the NEW lead acid battery has to have 33 Ah.

Another thing to consider is that many, if not most, of the radios will stop working when voltage drops below 10V. Now look at the LFP and lead acid batteries voltage charts. You will have a better idea which chemistry will cut your navigation/communication first.

I know people who fly hard IFR all the time and replace lead acid battery during every annual. Real world experience is priceless! There is a good reason to treat a lead acid battery just like the motor oil. Yes, it still works and cranks, but, as usual, the devil is in the details.

Vik

The battery must have 80% of its rated capacity or it’s not airworthy. We capacity test every one of them and we throw a few of them out every year. So take whatever 33 is times 80% is (26.4Ah) and that’s what you really have and it still a hell of a lot more than a 35 series compatible EarthX. 
One more point, the capacity test cuts off at 10V. So you’re guaranteed to run two hours with a 13A power draw with a marginally passing battery. 

[Pinecone]

On 8/31/2024 at 2:49 AM, Utah20Gflyer said:

I don’t really get why people get so offended by a product someone is offering but they don’t want.  You don’t have to buy it, and the fact that they have different objectives for that product than you do doesn’t mean they are spitting in your face.  

Who's offended?

I am trying to tell a vendor what changes will make me buy their product and the reasons I am not buying it now.

They can listen and maybe sell more.  Or not pay attention and lose some customers.

They don't have a Henry Ford product where only black is sellable.

[Hank]

35 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

They don't have a Henry Ford product where only black is sellable.

Ford offered the Model T only in black because colored paint had significantly longer drying time, and he had limited space to park vehicles while paint dried. So he painted everything black, and was able to produce many more vehicles. "You can have any color you want as long as it's black" didn't mean all of his customers wanted black . . . .

[McMooney]

On 8/30/2024 at 7:14 PM, Hank said:

I'm thinking hard about buying one when my RG35-ACX needs replacement. Yaay, @EarthX Inc! Go Approval! Everything I have except the GPS and radios will run without power anyway, and I can crank the gear down by hand if needed (BTDT, nobody gave me a t shirt).

On the other hand, getting 25 lb off of my firewall is a great benefit to both useful load and CG!

Same here, except for my surefly, everything has battery backup, uses minimal power or gets shutoff in the event of alternator failure.  quick napkin calc,  2 amp for transponder + 3 amp for gnc + 3 amps for g5 sys/audio panel/lighting, let's just say 10 amps in my normal config,  that's 1.5 hours without  any sort of load shedding.

Due to a stupid idea of flying across that big pond, i was already planning on getting dedicated backups for the surefly, either enough reserve to power it to my fuel limits or a sep alternator to replace my vacuum pump.

[jetdriven]

You really want to measure the load shed configuration then write both the config and the amp draw down.  
Also, a lot of planes are difficult to tell precisely when the alternator fails.  The GI275 is awesome but the only alert is the V displayed is now 12 something and a very small blinking status triangle. It’s easy to miss, and 10 mins of that is 5AH in a 30A plane.