Let the games begin - MAJOR Avionics Upgrade.

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

"What if" flight plan diversion scenarios can and have been done extremely rapidly with a switch to disconnect the 760 from the 750 so I can examine weather alternatives without altering the current flight plan.  If I wanted to, I could then push the new diversion plan back to the 750.

That's clever.  Not everyone would foresee the use for that.

[dkkim73]

On 1/3/2024 at 12:20 PM, LANCECASPER said:

I haven't done this yet on the G1000 but I would like to hard wire the power for the 760 and interface it to receive flight plans. I can turn off that feature if I want to do some "what-if" scenarios.  

I think there was a recent discussion of that, but I am not sure if it's possible with the non-NXi G1000. I would be keenly interested if there is a way to get routing info pushed from the 760 to the G1000. There is probably some RS-232 thing somewhere but it is not clear to me that FP sync can be achieved. I am all ears if so. 

I am teetering on the verge every night of ordering an Aera 760, in large part due to postings and advice from @donkaye. I am impressed with ForeFlight but have a real old-school desire to have firmware'd or even TSO'd gear as a backup. Got loads of mileage out of a used Garmin unit on the yoke in the past. 

Anyhow, it sounds like a great backup for plates and SA as well. 

D

[LANCECASPER]

32 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

I think there was a recent discussion of that, but I am not sure if it's possible with the non-NXi G1000. I would be keenly interested if there is a way to get routing info pushed from the 760 to the G1000. There is probably some RS-232 thing somewhere but it is not clear to me that FP sync can be achieved. I am all ears if so. 

I am teetering on the verge every night of ordering an Aera 760, in large part due to postings and advice from @donkaye. I am impressed with ForeFlight but have a real old-school desire to have firmware'd or even TSO'd gear as a backup. Got loads of mileage out of a used Garmin unit on the yoke in the past. 

Anyhow, it sounds like a great backup for plates and SA as well. 

D

I think the best you can hope for is to receive flight plans from the G1000 to the Aera 760.

[blaine beaven]

@Pinecone this looks like it will be an awesome upgrade. Many well wishes for a painless experience. 

Are you going to keep your stormscope? I am planning an upgrade similar to yours. I currently have a WX8 that I have found quite useful in the summer, but there is limited real estate in these panels… would be happy to hear your opinion on keeping it or not. 

[Pinecone]

6 hours ago, blaine beaven said:

@Pinecone this looks like it will be an awesome upgrade. Many well wishes for a painless experience. 

Are you going to keep your stormscope? I am planning an upgrade similar to yours. I currently have a WX8 that I have found quite useful in the summer, but there is limited real estate in these panels… would be happy to hear your opinion on keeping it or not. 

I was just talking to the shop yesterday about this.  He recommends against keeping the WX-10A.  Too old, no support, and it does not have a heading interface.  He feels that the WX500 is the way to go, even if the flat rate repair is crazy expensive.  He had only had a couple ever go bad.  And at current pricing, it is cheaper to just source another used one.  

But he has an install kit, so planning on having the install done, and defer the purchase of a unit.

[Pinecone]

20 hours ago, donkaye said:

As a flight instructor, FF gives you ⅓ off, so I do have it in addition to Garmin Pilot.  It does some things that GP won't, like give you 3D pictures of any airport and a 3D view of your planned flight.  Having said that, its interface is quite a bit different that GP, enough so that Brian Schiff has devoted many hours online to describe how it works.  I started the series, but just didn't have the time to see it all the way through.   Since most of my avionics are Garmin, I have used GP primarily since it came out.  Before Garmin screwed it up again, when it worked, database concierge made it easy to upload databases.  A couple of months ago Garmin changed something and it hasn't worked right since.  Many on BT confirmed the same thing.

The last update I did, Database Concierge worked fine for me.

I get FF for free due to flying for CAP.  CAP pilots get the Military version (similar to the top of the line civilian) for free.   So my first EFB, getting back into flying was FF.  So I find it easy to use.

With FF, you don't need to disconnect to do "what if" planning, as you have to send the new flight plan to the GTN (in my current setup).  It doesn't automatically update to the avionics.  Otherwise you can reload the flight plan in the GTN back to FF.  Also, if you change something on the GTN, like go direct, you have to accept the change on FF.  

If you haven't been using FF, GP has pretty much the same interface as the 760 and GTN navs, which makes things easier.

I seriously considered the JPI 900, but many here and on BT we for Garmin EIS, so I am going that way.  It may be going back to JPI if I don't like the Garmin.  I have flown the Garmin EIS in CAP G-1000 aircraft, and it is OK.  Time will tell.

[dkkim73]

14 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I think the best you can hope for is to receive flight plans from the G1000 to the Aera 760.

Do you have any more information about this? The G1000 is still a bit of a mystery to me in terms of system integration capabilities. Is this a Garmin protocol that runs over RS-232 or some custom connector? IIRC the older panel units could cross-load FP data. That's kind of more what I was thinking, not necessarily the newer wireless stuff which I do not think exists. 

As I understand it, connection to the newer 345R transponder is purely for positional and traffic/broadcast data, ie. ADS-B received data, not anything from the G1000. 

[dkkim73]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:19 PM, donkaye said:

That won't work well.  It will place the 760 too low and give you less flexibility.  You need the attachment like I have for best placement.

Moving down this road myself now...

Naïvely searching brings up a different RAM mount: https://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/14532

Looking further finds a base/proximal portion that looks like @donkaye's: https://www.sportys.com/ram-claw-yoke-mount-for-garmin-aera-760-a.html

But the last piece is not positioned optimally as noted. Further search yields this: https://www.expressmounts.com/ram-mount-extension-cradle-plate-with-ball-rmr-b-164-f

(using the part # for the distal plate which is pictured in the example)

@donkaye do you recall which exact configuration you bought or where you bought it? Having it in centrally and tight like that looks optimal esp. with regard to CG/center of rotation as you noted. There might be a small increase in moment of inertia but yours and other PIREPs indicate it's a non-issue. 

David

Edit to Add: this looks like the closest "pre-configured" solution: https://rammount.com/products/ram-b-125u 

There appears to be a choice between a "medium" or "short" socket arm (the dogbone-looking thing that grabs each ball). 

 

[Schllc]

A stratus and an iPad mini are an excellent backup for the g1000, and is what I use.

you can fit a full size iPad in the yoke, but I find the mini is much more comfortable, ive also used the iPhone instead of the iPad  

It is not TSO’d, but I don’t know of anything that plays with the g1000, but it will provide a backup AHARS, navigation reference, traffic and weather, all 100% independently of the planes avionics or power buss. 
best part is you can take your system with you if you fly with someone in their plane. 

[donkaye]

34 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

 

Edit to Add: this looks like the closest "pre-configured" solution: https://rammount.com/products/ram-b-125u 

There appears to be a choice between a "medium" or "short" socket arm (the dogbone-looking thing that grabs each ball). 

 

That's the one to get with the "Medium" extension.  While it can be mounted from the top of the yoke, it is best mounted from the bottom.  It will be obvious, but each configuration requires the Garmin cradle to be bolted on differently.

[Sue Bon]

On 1/5/2024 at 12:02 AM, donkaye said:

As with other valuable contributors, I'm close to leaving Mooneyspace...

No.

No, no, no, NO. Do not leave Mooneyspace. Please! Your experience and expertise are invaluable.

Unfortunately Clarence left before I was able to forbid it  I won't miss this opportunity.

[Marc_B]

I looked at the code in Don's picture and was confused, but RAM said RMR-B-164-F is same as RAM-B-125BU; as above, Don confirmed this is the right one and recommended mounting coming up from below the yoke.

I just ordered off of Spruce:  RAM-B-121BU (yoke ball mount), RAM-B-125B-G1U (GPS mount that has mounting hardware), RAM-B-201U (medium arm).  If you don't need mounting hardware you can save a few bucks with RAM-B-125BU.

 

 

[donkaye]

47 minutes ago, Sue Bon said:

No.

No, no, no, NO. Do not leave Mooneyspace. Please! Your experience and expertise are invaluable.

Unfortunately Clarence left before I was able to forbid it  I won't miss this opportunity.

Thanks, Sue.  Sometimes the responses to my posts are so frustrating, I wonder why I stick around.  I've specialized in teaching extensively over the past 30 years (CFI and CFII in 2/1994) in every model Mooney except the D and G of which there were so few.  I've done the work over 22 years to earn the designation "Master Flight Instructor" 11 times (needs to be renewed ever 2 years).  With a degree in Electrical Engineer and working quite a few years as a display engineer, I spent several months extensively researching the market before I did my upgrade.  I've read all the manuals a number of times on not only my equipment, but those of many of my students.   My experience says that many people spend over $100,000 on their upgrade and never read a manual.  I guess that keeps me in business.  I've flown most of the equipment available today (still like mine the best).  So I cringe at some of the feedback I get.  I think some people out there just don't know what they don't know.  So I go back to saying it's very frustrating trying to move immovable people to another position.

[Schllc]

On 1/4/2024 at 6:02 PM, donkaye said:

Clearly, my experience is getting through to no one.  As with other valuable contributors, I'm close to leaving Mooneyspace...

I agree with Sue and others, your experience is appreciated by the vast majority who frequent the site. 
I have also noticed an uptick in those who seem interested only in agitating or stoking conflict. At least that’s the way some of the comments read to me. 
That being said, much like texts and emails, some things don’t always read as intended, and the chronic agitators can just be muted. 
It would be a great loss to the group of earnest readers to lose your contributions, and I would hope you remain. 

[Rwsavory]

There are two things I take away from Don‘s recent experience on the forum. First, the younger generation of pilots has spent a lot of time on social media such as Twitter, where the tone is very different from what we are used to here. Second, as an older pilot (flying for 45 years and counting) a lot of advice I give is ignored. Some folks have to learn it on their own and for themselves. I get used to it and don’t take it personally. 

[Marc_B]

I was fortunate enough to start with an aircraft that had previous owner work with @donkaye when doing panel upgrade, did my transition training with Don and have continued to lean on him afterwards with my upgrade and autopilot.  So it makes it easy to follow his advice when I'm waffling with price or options.

It's surprisingly difficult to find all the setups and options and brands to "demo" to actually find the best of breed yourself.  I think this is where being an instructor who has flown with countless Mooneys and panels really gives a more well rounded and experience based impression.  My impression is my own based on my limited experience; Don's is tempered with a lot more first hand experience behind it.  That said, I'm happy that my experiences have confirmed what Don encouraged me to do!  Heck, even buying a new Aera mount based on his recommendation.

The kicker is that all things aviation are a balance of desire and financial pressure equating to personal value.  It's REALLY hard to immediately see the value in things that co$t tons without either first hand experience or based on recommendation from someone you trust.  Many things are so "shades of grey" that personal preference still plays a significant role. (or a matter of "ya, that's nice but I'd rather not spend money on that")

[Echo]

So having a different opinion is a trigger to some?  I own an Aera.   I HAVE the yoke mount.  This unit IS a BIG PIG.  That is a positive for panel mount in an air gizmo as the screen is large.  Put it on your yoke and love it.  Fine.  Enjoy.  I live in Iowa.  Having big pigs is desireable.  I had tons of issues with older ipads overheating.  My current mini has NOT had that problem, EVER on the yoke.  I love it.  Enjoy the Aera.  Being able to install and use on a yoke is wonderful.  I would only do this if my ipad AND i-phone die.  Unlikely, but possible.  I am in my 60's so NOT "younger generation".  Do agree that some stereotype that young internet users are mean.  Perhaps stereotyping the old as easily triggered would also be mean and wrong?

[Echo]

What IS really awesome is that if you have a dock on co-pilot side you can yoke mount as an option.  If you do NOT have a dock... 
 

You have awesome painted aluminum for co-pilot to look at.  Sweet.

[Marc_B]

Perhaps the thought is that the size of the unit is outweighed by what it can do for me on a routine basis.  For me the way I use it, those pros would be lost on a panel mount over on the copilot side.  At the end of the day this is personal preference and if you have a clear way that works for you, by all means do what works for you.

I'll have to get some pictures to show what I mean next flight.  During a flight I routinely view Traffic page in the pattern; terrain page in the mountains (I'm in CO) that shows not just a color depiction horizontally, but the Aera has a vertical depiction with flight path showing if I'll make it over the ridge ahead; weather page (with XM as well as ADS-B/FIS-B) that I keep depicted when I'm flying around weather; Charts for my approach chart briefing and reference to during approach; and XM music page to adjust volume/mute when things get busy and arriving at destination area.  Those are just the pages I click routinely.  It's at my fingertips rather than a reach.  It's quick and easy to immediately pull up what I want.  Its easy to go back and forth while keeping my MFD/GTN on the pages I want in general.

It's not that the Aera gives so much different information, but rather it is more efficient use of information for the way I fly.  Not trying to convince someone who already has decided what they like and don't like.  Rather trying to inform of my use for those who haven't made a decision or are still on the fence.

BTW, my typical copilot pays more attention to a book, Netflix on her lap, and anything but the panel.  The panel in my Mooney is for the pilot, rarely (if ever) the copilot!

[toto]

For those of you with Aera 760 docks, could you post a picture of how that fits on the copilot side? I measured my panel, and the Aera was a very tight fit by itself, and I had a hard time seeing how the dock would fit. Do you mount it vertically or horizontally?

I basically came to the conclusion that it was never going to happen on my panel - at least, not without some major surgery ..

[donkaye]

7 minutes ago, Echo said:

So having a different opinion is a trigger to some?  I own an Aera.   I HAVE the yoke mount.  This unit IS a BIG PIG.  That is a positive for panel mount in an air gizmo as the screen is large.  Put it on your yoke and love it.  Fine.  Enjoy.  I live in Iowa.  Having big pigs is desireable.  I had tons of issues with older ipads overheating.  My current mini has NOT had that problem, EVER on the yoke.  I love it.  Enjoy the Aera.  Being able to install and use on a yoke is wonderful.  I would only do this if my ipad AND i-phone die.  Unlikely, but possible.  I am in my 60's so NOT "younger generation".  Do agree that some stereotype that young internet users are mean.  Perhaps stereotyping the old as easily triggered would also be mean and wrong?

First off, you are the younger generation compared to me.  If your Aera mount was the Garmin mount, I would agree that it's not very good.  It blocks part of the panel and vibrates too much.  The Ram mount attached below the yoke doesn't do any of that.  I've had students be perfectly happy with the iPad mini on the yoke.  I just don't think it provides all of the types of information in the best way possible from a pilot's point of view, and may have a reliability issue,  For the benefit of others, because I'm never going to convince you, on a number of cross country flights with students I've seen their iPads fail due to heat and it was minutes before it got cool enough to work again.  Not good if you were depending on it on an approach in IFR conditions.  

[donkaye]

10 minutes ago, Marc_B said:

Perhaps the thought is that the size of the unit is outweighed by what it can do for me on a routine basis.  For me the way I use it, those pros would be lost on a panel mount over on the copilot side.  At the end of the day this is personal preference and if you have a clear way that works for you, by all means do what works for you.

I'll have to get some pictures to show what I mean next flight.  During a flight I routinely view Traffic page in the pattern; terrain page in the mountains (I'm in CO) that shows not just a color depiction horizontally, but the Aera has a vertical depiction with flight path showing if I'll make it over the ridge ahead; weather page (with XM as well as ADS-B/FIS-B) that I keep depicted when I'm flying around weather; Charts for my approach chart briefing and reference to during approach; and XM music page to adjust volume/mute when things get busy and arriving at destination area.  Those are just the pages I click routinely.  It's at my fingertips rather than a reach.  It's quick and easy to immediately pull up what I want.  Its easy to go back and forth while keeping my MFD/GTN on the pages I want in general.

It's not that the Aera gives so much different information, but rather it is more efficient use of information for the way I fly.  Not trying to convince someone who already has decided what they like and don't like.  Rather trying to inform of my use for those who haven't made a decision or are still on the fence.

BTW, my typical copilot pays more attention to a book, Netflix on her lap, and anything but the panel.  The panel in my Mooney is for the pilot, rarely (if ever) the copilot!

Marc, when you decide to retire from being an ER Doctor, you should go into sales.  You are a lot more tactful than I am.

[Echo]

44 minutes ago, donkaye said:

First off, you are the younger generation compared to me.  If your Aera mount was the Garmin mount, I would agree that it's not very good.  It blocks part of the panel and vibrates too much.  The Ram mount attached below the yoke doesn't do any of that.  I've had students be perfectly happy with the iPad mini on the yoke.  I just don't think it provides all of the types of information in the best way possible from a pilot's point of view, and may have a reliability issue,  For the benefit of others, because I'm never going to convince you, on a number of cross country flights with students I've seen their iPads fail due to heat and it was minutes before it got cool enough to work again.  Not good if you were depending on it on an approach in IFR conditions.  

Don, I appreciate your reply. Clearly it works great on your yoke as configured and you enjoy it and value it as an instructor and frequent IFR pilot. In 10,000 hours you have massive experience and it’s valued here on Mooney space if my calling it a big pig upset you I absolutely apologize for that because that was not my intention merely to give my opinion having owned this really outstanding but very physically large unit from Garmin. As a counterpoint having a panel dock, I’m a copilot side is not a negative, especially if it is hard wired and can receive ships power always being ready in the event of his needed on the yoke. My iPad is dedicated to Garmin Pilot and has worked flawlessly in my plane. Just another data point. Have a great weekend Scott.

[dkkim73]

7 hours ago, donkaye said:

...  For the benefit of others, because I'm never going to convince you, on a number of cross country flights with students I've seen their iPads fail due to heat and it was minutes before it got cool enough to work again.  Not good if you were depending on it on an approach in IFR conditions.  

Somewhere in the middle age-wise (between this crowd and the masters-of-the-universe 37 yr-old Cirrus pilots) but my ECR (effective curmudgeon rating) is high. 

I have a mindset very attuned to failure modes, human factors, swiss cheese models of accident occurence, etc. I also have been neck-deep in technology since I can remember. IMO there is a huge difference between 37cent USB chips and good quality 802.11* gear, or hard-wired RS-232/NMEA/etc vs WiFi du jour, and between general-purpose OSes and firmware (esp. TSO'ed panel units). 

I may be crazy to worry about G1000 failures given the # of years of experience with the system, but I still want backup. As great as the current revs of iOS are, there is still something about a purpose-built unit that is compelling. 

As for ergo and panel, I'm all ears to all the inputs, but several very experienced folks (incl. Don) have weighed in to me in and out-of-band on the value of having a close-at-hand redundant view, and more so the plates without relying on the G1000. The main input to the contrary has been clutter, hence the discussion above re: a close-in fit to the yoke. 

I hope to get you a PIREP at some point

 

[RoundTwo]

19 hours ago, toto said:

For those of you with Aera 760 docks, could you post a picture of how that fits on the copilot side? I measured my panel, and the Aera was a very tight fit by itself, and I had a hard time seeing how the dock would fit. Do you mount it vertically or horizontally?

I basically came to the conclusion that it was never going to happen on my panel - at least, not without some major surgery ..

While this picture isn’t specifically of the Aera 760, it does show its placement. It is mounted to a MyGoFlight bolted panel mount on the blank panel in front of the copilot. It’s connected with their GPS adapted bolted to the 760 cradle. This location was chosen because the panel mount was already installed in the plane for using an iPad. 
 

The Aera is used mostly by my wife for traffic and weather display because it is hard wired to the transponder. It’s also listening to the GTN, so it gets FP updates and draws all of the curved routes for holds and approaches, just like on the other displays. In its standard location it’s not very handy as a planning device, but if needed for that, it easily pops out of the cradle. So far, I’ve never felt a need to do that since I fly with an iPad on my lap running GP.

All things considered, the integration between all the devices works flawlessly. Non-pilot passengers love having their own “busy box” to look at anything they want. If they want to fly, I simply use the BT connection to the G3X so it can get AHRS information and use its synthetic vision to get them their own mini-PFD.