M20B for PPL and first airplane?

[BHarper]

Hello everyone, Looking for advice on the potential purchase of a M20B to finish getting my PPL. I'm 45 and about to retire from my law enforcement job and want to start building time towards a second career in aviation. At the moment I'm not even halfway through getting my PPL, and have been renting 172s to fly with my CFI. I'm fortunate to have to ability to buy my own airplane to finish my PPl and then build time and obtain my other certs, and have been looking at cessnas and cherokees, however I came across a nice looking M20B with really low hours and nice avionics that will suit my needs. My CFI really likes mooneys and says this one looks like a good deal for what I need, so I'm currently in negotiations with the owner trying to make a deal. 

My question is, Am I crazy and is this airplane too complex for someone with as little time as I have, and should I stick with something like a cessna 150/172? Or would a M20B make a good time builder? I've been doing research and see a lot about the C model but don't see much about the B model but I think the landing characteristics are pretty close to being the same, or am I off? Anyway, I'd appreciate any advice you guys give to help me make a decision. 

[Planegary]

I personally would finish my private on the training aircraft ( no need to abuse your plane learning to fly) and then start flying your plane but check on insurance prices. There will be a substantial decrease in the insurance when you get an instrument rating and continue decreasing as you get more time in complex aircraft. That said it is a wonderful plane and I’m sure it will be a source of pride for you. You can pull the engine back and fly slow( building hours not mph) for low fuel burns or sped up and have a trip aircraft. I’m sure others here can jump in and tell you what I for got or how they think differently than me

[wombat]

Crazy?  Nope.   Is it potentially cheaper?  Yup.  Is it potentially more expensive?  Yup.

Which one will it be?  Time will tell.

 

Personally I'd recommend finishing your PPL in the rentals.  You might end up spending an extra $3k or $5k in rentals Vs. owning, but probably it'll be a wash.    But with rentals you can move to a different one in a heartbeat if a major maintenance issue comes up. 

I really like Mooneys (That's why I am on here!) but every aircraft has things it does well and things it does poorly.  And Cessna 172's are GREAT training planes. 

Go ahead and buy the M20B now, and get it all washed up and vacuumed so you can go fly it as soon as your PPL is done. (With a CFI so you can your complex endorsement)

[bcg]

I asked this question about a year ago, the discussion got a little heated.  I did what I wanted and bought a C with 20 hours in my logbook and put 200 hours on her in my first year.  She's in an extensive annual right now, which includes some avionics work.  If you want a Mooney, buy a Mooney, don't let other people tell you it's a bad idea.  Sure, I had some rough landings, I still do every now and again, but it's not as hard to learn as it's made out to be.

 

[A64Pilot]

Yes your crazy, well not crazy but what your wanting usually doesn’t work out like you hope it would.

If the intent is to build time towards getting someone to pay you to fly, do not buy an airplane, rent the cheapest thing you can, buy bulk time if possible, get your instrument and CFII and get others to pay for your time building even if you only make pennies instructing it’s still hours your not buying. Trust me buying time in a beater 152 / 172 will cost less than buying a Mooney by the time you add up all the costs.

When renting availability is assured and costs are known

What is probable is you buy the airplane and soon your putting every nickel you have to make it airworthy and even if you can afford it no sweat it’s likely to be down for months.

When you do get a job being paid to fly it’s unlikely you will have the time and money to do a whole lot of personal flying. That comes later when you can afford a nice airplane and can enjoy the cheapest insurance rates. It’s a either have the money or have the time issue until you build seniority / experience.

I know it’s not what you wanted to hear and it’s not the way I went, I had a rich Uncle pay for all my Certs, but still took years before a personal airplane made sense.

[47U]

1 hour ago, BHarper said:

My question is, Am I crazy and is this airplane too complex for someone with as little time as I have, and should I stick with something like a cessna 150/172? Or would a M20B make a good time builder? I've been doing research and see a lot about the C model but don't see much about the B model but I think the landing characteristics are pretty close to being the same, or am I off? Anyway, I'd appreciate any advice you guys give to help me make a decision. 

Yes, you might be crazy, but that doesn’t mean it won’t work out for you.  For your purposes (building time), the B model is the same as the C model.  The vintage Mooney’s are not hard to land, but you need to stay on speed or you’ll float forever in the flare.  I don’t think the complexity will be an issue and obviously your instructor doesn’t, either.

If you can deal with all the risks associated with buying an airplane unknown to you (many threads on that subject), and have resources for unscheduled repairs (ballpark 40 amu for an engine overhaul) and fixed costs (hangar, insurance, taxes), I would be in support of you undertaking this adventure.  

[hammdo]

Insurance will be a killer first year, may want to consider getting the private first (using all the fixed costs of ownership to do that), but it all about what you can do and possibly having down time.

I will say, I did the owner thing (Warrior) in the 90s due to the rental issues (plane in 100 hour, rented or down for repair). That also factors but, insurance was cheaper then…

-Don

[Schllc]

Insurance cost being “expensive” is very relative. I have found hull value to be the big driver. 
I bought an ovation 3gx about 25 hours into my ppl and finished the ppl and did my instrument in the money.   My insurance was only about 5k that first year, and it likely would have been a lot less in a plane of less than half the value. 
this question comes up regularly on the forum and all of our answers are there to read so I won’t repeat myself, but the one item that is seldom mentions is the proficiency. 
in my opinion the more time you have in the plane you plan to fly, the safer you will be in that plane. 
I had an event some time ago where I lost more than half my engine monitoring info, but given my familiarity with the plane, I could easily manage it safely with the remaining items. I know my Mooney like the back of my hand, much like most of the guys here, and the sooner you start flying them, the sooner your education starts. 
Buy the Mooney and train in it if that’s what you want, you will not regret it. 
That being said, I guess I’m crazy. 

[Pinecone]

I would say it depends on where you are in your training.  If you have soloed a few times and pretty much know how to land and working on XC, it would not be out of the realm doable.

I would not want to beat up MY plane learning to land.

As said, most people build time by getting Instrument, Commercial, and Flight Instructor and get paid to fly.  Not a huge amount of pay, but better than paying.

The issue with using a Mooney for time building is they are too fast.  You need longer trips to build any time.

Definitely price insurance before getting to deeply into the concept of purchasing.  

[MikeOH]

Crazy?  Truth be told, we are ALL crazy to own private aircraft! (Even those who don't admit it) It really doesn't make much economic sense.

Which, brings me to my single question for you:  Are you buying to build time for a paying flying job?  If yes, do NOT buy anything!!  As @A64Pilot said, get all of your ratings and start instructing.  The transaction costs and risk of downtime, not to mention unknown expenses, make buying a non-starter if you are training to be a paid pro.  IOW, if you treat this as an investment/business then buying is NOT the smart financial play.

[Danb]

1 hour ago, Schllc said:

Insurance cost being “expensive” is very relative. I have found hull value to be the big driver. 
I bought an ovation 3gx about 25 hours into my ppl and finished the ppl and did my instrument in the money.   My insurance was only about 5k that first year, and it likely would have been a lot less in a plane of less than half the value. 
this question comes up regularly on the forum and all of our answers are there to read so I won’t repeat myself, but the one item that is seldom mentions is the proficiency. 
in my opinion the more time you have in the plane you plan to fly, the safer you will be in that plane. 
I had an event some time ago where I lost more than half my engine monitoring info, but given my familiarity with the plane, I could easily manage it safely with the remaining items. I know my Mooney like the back of my hand, much like most of the guys here, and the sooner you start flying them, the sooner your education starts. 
Buy the Mooney and train in it if that’s what you want, you will not regret it. 
That being said, I guess I’m crazy. 

Totally agree 

[thevaliant]

Im 10 hours in and want an M20 bad, but yall keep talking me out of it.

[T. Peterson]

5 hours ago, thevaliant said:

Im 10 hours in and want an M20 bad, but yall keep talking me out of it.

Read all these posts and think clearly through every point. All of these fellas on both sides have made excellent points.

 I think it boils down to money. Mooneys are not too complex in which to learn to fly, but airplane ownership is very expensive. That’s your call. A lot of fellas have pointed out the expenses involved. Pay attention.

 The posts pointing out the advantage of rentals always being available, as opposed to training delays in your airplane due to unforeseen maintenance, strike me as being a very valid consideration.

It is also valid to point out the advantage of learning in your plane and avoiding transition costs.

Final analysis:  If money was truly not an issue and I really wanted a Mooney I would buy one!

 

[MikeOH]

To further agree with T. Peterson's comments. IF you can afford to buy the Mooney AND continue to pay to rent, then go for it!  The reason I say you need to be willing to do both is that odds are that your 'new' plane is going to be down for maintenance the first year; maybe only on and off, but that doesn't play well with finishing your PPL in a timely and efficient manner.

[Fly Boomer]

6 hours ago, thevaliant said:

Im 10 hours in and want an M20 bad, but yall keep talking me out of it.

Glad to see you on MooneySpace.

These posts may be scary, but I would just suggest you do a detailed analysis and understand the total cost of ownership before you commit.  Getting on the merry-go-round is way more expensive than the purchase price and, once on, it can then be expensive to get off.

[thevaliant]

I appreciate the replies. I haven’t jumped on one because I don’t know what I don’t know. I’m not just new to flying, I’m new to aviation as a whole. Curious how much more costly, on average, a mid time 60’s M20 would be compared to a similar say 150. It’s really hard to know how much money I’m putting toward a renter knowing I could be putting that into my own aircraft. 

[MikeOH]

43 minutes ago, thevaliant said:

I appreciate the replies. I haven’t jumped on one because I don’t know what I don’t know. I’m not just new to flying, I’m new to aviation as a whole. Curious how much more costly, on average, a mid time 60’s M20 would be compared to a similar say 150. It’s really hard to know how much money I’m putting toward a renter knowing I could be putting that into my own aircraft. 

My understanding is that a PPL is somewhere around $10K these days.  That is a tiny amount compared to what owning is going to cost M20 or C150.  Even if you somehow came out ahead with a C150 it's going to be by a VERY marginal amount.  And, then you're going to want something other than a C150 after getting your PPL!

Your honesty is commendable; you do NOT want to buy, for sure, when you still "don't know what you don't know"!

[Schllc]

When I started looking for my first plane to finish my ppl I thought cheap, something I would write the check for and set a budget of 80k. A month later I spent three times that and got a gx ovation 3. Two reasons for the big change…. 
1, I owed it to myself and my family to get the newest and safest platform I could afford, so the budget limitation was not rational.  I had to finance, but was ok with that route too,
2, it’s like buying an old used car for 10k to own it and 10k a year repairing it, or you can spend 40k to finance a new one. 
one will be down a lot, and a lot of inconvenience, and one you get in and go. 

I had a friend that was aligned with me on the cheap plane and we considered partnering.  It dissolved when he bought a 1973 172  We bought our planes within a month of each other, his was due for annual six months later, and mind was due eight months later.  
His annual was over 22k and took three months , mine was just over 4k, and took a little under three weeks  

After almost nine years of ownership, aside from annuals a magneto, a turbo, and a few minor non airworthy items,  I have only missed one planned flight because of maintenance.

buy old and cheap and whip into shape yourself, or buy newer and fly.  
I think at the end of the day, the tangibles and intangibles more or less even out, just which path do you prefer. 
I wanted to fly often

[Utah20Gflyer]

The fixed costs of owning a Mooney are close to what you would pay for a rental plane and instructor to get your private.   There is no way you are going to save money.   
 

If you want to pay a lot more because you want to fly a Mooney then that would make more sense to me.  

[Schllc]

23 minutes ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

The fixed costs of owning a Mooney are close to what you would pay for a rental plane and instructor to get your private.   There is no way you are going to save money.   
 

If you want to pay a lot more because you want to fly a Mooney then that would make more sense to me.  

I think it’s regard to raw dollars you are correct,  but given that aviation is a discretionary cost, there are a lot of other factors that really should be considered, at least I believe so for my choice. 
Convenience, being able to fly when I wanted to, not when a flight school plane was available.  
Proficiency, I firmly believe that the plane you spend the most time in, will be what you are inevitably most proficient.  I did not want to spend 200+ hours in a 172 only to have to transition to my real forever plane. 
Want, since this is discretionary, why would one settle?  I think it’s important to really love your plane.  If you do you will not resent the expense to maintain to a high standard, and since you don’t need it you get to decide. 
Mission,  my mission is about 600 miles, a slow plane was not an option. We rented a 172 to go look at a commander years ago. The plane was a three hour drive, so we decided to fly. With a 40knt headwind it took us over two hours to fly there. That made my decision to get a Mooney that day. 
 

Reducing a passionate hobby to money alone is a reverse rationalization of “I’ll save money traveling by buying a plane”.
Truth is, if you find yourself at either extreme, you’ve gone too far!    
You only live once, get what you want!