Considering M20C

[JChrisAero]

Hey everyone, 

My wife and I are considering getting an M20C for cross country trips. Background: she's planning on starting a PhD in Northen Alabama, and neither we nor our families are near hub airports, so she suggested it might be worth buying a plane both so I can keep up my ratings and so we can use it to visit our families more easily back west (CO and AZ).
I'm a 150 Hr Cessna pilot with my high-performance endorsement, so I'd need a complex endorsement as well as transition training. I've done 8-hour cross countries before (CO-IN and back in an old 182) and they were long, but manageable, so on that front I think I know what I'm getting into.

I've also been reading everything I can about the gotchas of the M20C, especially an excellent old article by LASAR in 1996. I also work in aviation, specifically flight and accident/incident data analysis, so I have some good resources at my disposal for checking into the history of individual aircraft.

Our budget would be 40-60K for the aircraft, can be totally basic with no speed mods, ugly paint, etc. as long as its systems and airframe are sound.

Do you have any input or thoughts? Are we totally off our rockers? Opinions are helpful even if they sting

Thanks in advance!

[Rwsavory]

Sounds reasonable to me. I've owned one for about 10 years. It's perfect for 2-3 people and relatively inexpensive to operate.

[A64Pilot]

I think the budget is awfully tight, not saying you can’t buy one for that amount but you could very easily have to put that much into it soon after purchase.

 

[hammdo]

First year costs hit every owner too. Even a well maintained Mooney will do that. Mine was exceptionally maintained but flying it a lot will raise up the unexpected.

I didn’t buy mine to ‘save’ money but for convenience…

-Don

[Hank]

My C is a good traveler, but it depends on where in Colorado you're going, and the route you plan to Arizona. 

I cruise at 7500-10K, and while I've been higher a few times, climb rates get poor (especially in summer).

If you have questions, I'm in Lower Alabama.

[DXB]

40-60k these days gets you a pretty bare bones C with badly dated avionics - of course you should prioritize engine and airframe first.  However it sounds like you want to use it as a serious traveling machine, in which case an instrument rating, modern-ish IFR panel, and an autopilot matter a lot and may price you out.  It's worth noting also that annual operating costs without any upgrades may run you in the 12-25k range depending on a whole bunch of parameters too extensive to flesh out here.  The point made about altitudes by @Hank is also a relevant one.  They can be flown carefully across the Rockies with some specific training and planning, but I don't think anyone would choose a normally aspirated Mooney if this was their core mission.

[whiskytango]

I used a C model for my twice-weekly 600 nm commute for several years, and it was a great ride.  This was on the East coast so there were no concerns about high terrain.  Plan on getting your Instrument Rating as soon as possible to get the most utility from your C model.  The budget range you mentioned may be on the low side in the current market. 

[JChrisAero]

Wow, thank you all for the responses! I did see a few comments about $10000 initial annuals, but most seemed to be in the 1-3k range. I’d like a good mechanic to look over any plane we’re considering.

Don: convenience is definitely the reason here, and yes our budget is tight, but we’re not trying to buy the cheapest thing out there either. We just don’t need a souped up glass cockpit speed demon with every bell and whistle. I trained in 2020 and 2021 round dial flying dead reckoning or VOR to VOR and still prefer it tbh.

Hank: thanks for the heads up, that’s very helpful. We’re both light people and have taken 172n together to 14000 ft briefly to cross 9k mountains in Wyoming, but our families are on the plains along the front range in Co and in the white mountains of AZ, so we’d never have any terrain over 8000 feet msl with the correct routes.

DXB and WhiskyTango: I am not yet IFR rated, I was half way through when we got married last year and would have to restart that from scratch. Thanks for the honest assessments, I really appreciate that. We can discuss a more realistic price range if need be, but I have seen a couple planes that would fit our parameters, they’d need that inspection for sure though to be sure

[Fritz1]

I second what A64 said regarding 1st year cost, I bought a 68 G model in the late 90s, same airframe, just 1 ft longer, very self sufficient airplane, about twice the purchase price went into repairs and upgrades in the first two years. To me a good pre-purchase inspection would be indispensable to get started. In order to tell you what you need to know this inspection has to be done so that the A&P just has to sign an annual after he has fixed all the squaks discovered in the pre purchase inspection. In case you walk the money is well spent. My favorite Mooney guru is Brian Kendrick in San Marcos TX, brian@mooneysupport.net. When I bought my Bravo 6 years ago he did two full blown inspections that I walked from, the third bird I bought and left it with him for two months to fix anything that was loose. 

[Rusty Pilot]

A Mooney C is a great choice.  I found mine 5 years ago for under your budget, but did add some avionic upgrades and new interior so now I am in for just over your budget.  

[Jim Peace]

My plane is a C. I have open checkbook mx for the last 10 years and last year still cost me nearly 30k in mx. New tanks prop overhaul and all that goes with it plus normal mx and stuff. 
 

if it may bother you to burn a 100 dollar bill everyday of the year then you may want to reconsider. Even perfect examples of Cs will cost at times. And if you don’t address it they rot away on the ramp. 

[Joseph Long]

Purchased my C from a fellow MSer.  In my opinion the C is the best bang for the buck on the market.  I too came over with 300+ hours on a shared 182. Insurance required 10 hours transition.   I think your budget may need to be flipped....60-80 vs 40-60.  Factor in about 1500-2k for a pre-buy.  Insurance for my first 60 hrs is $2,400/yr.  I added on an annual to the pre-buy and a Reiff heater another 2k.  But the C is in great shape and fully IFR ready.  Great cross country plane if it's just you and the wife.  If you want the full specs I can send you the pdf.

[M20F]

It’s a big roll of the dice.  Yes you might find a C at your price point that you can fly for 3-4yrs with minimal cash in but unlikely.  
 
You also will get stuck a lot of places and sometimes for a long time without an instrument rating.  

[MikeOH]

I'm six years into ownership of my F; average, all-in, has been $17K/year. (80 hours per year)

$40K-$60K is unrealistically low in today's market; sorry.  You could get lucky, but don't convince yourself you will!

MOST important, IMHO: Find a plane that has seen recent (last 2 years) and consistent use (flying every week or two).

If parting with $1K on a moments notice bothers you, ownership may not be for you

Would you be able to swing a $30K engine rebuild after purchase, or would that result in the plane sitting unused?

[Hank]

Using the Mooney checklist, annuals on my C with electric gear and flaps is around 20-24 hours, plus any repairs/ upgrades. I also provide the oil filter and usually the oil, too. (My IA insists on cutting open and inspecting the filter; if I've changed it recently, I bring him the old filter, too.)

Insurance will be high until you get 100 hours in the plane; expect another break for IFR.

My steady cruise groundspeed envelope runs from 68 to 186 knots; the former was crossing the Appalachians on a windy day near Knoxville at 10K, the latter was a decent tailwind across NC. I expect to see 135-140 mph Indicated down low, and 140-145 mph high (last week loaded heavy, 9000 msl, 65°F OAT, with 20+/2500 I was indicating ~137 mph)--ain't summer weather great!

[JChrisAero]

Once again, thank you all, this gives us a lot to chew on. A couple of clarifying points:

Additional costs up to the purchase price over the course of the first couple years are expected, and we’re not in a rush, if we have to walk away from a couple planes based on an inspection, we do.

Getting my IFR would be a given if I have an IFR capable aircraft to train in (especially one not dripping fuel on me when I open the left door… 0.o fun times)

@MikeOH is the 17k figure including initial purchase price? I don’t necessarily expect it to, but I couldn’t tell from your post.

Noting there is a WIDE variation of opinions on cost, how many of you are putting money into upgrades like reupholstering, speed mods, glass instruments, etc? 

I would be content with round dial and a simple gps, so if a good chunk of this is upgrades, it would be helpful to know

I also can walk away from this idea if we can’t find a solid airplane in our budget, I love to fly, but thankfully there’s a lot of joy in life apart from it too

[Utah20Gflyer]

My first annual was more than 10k.  A very clean annual basically just inspection, oil change and air filter will run 3k in my area.  In the price range you are looking at (which I bought in). I would expect a bunch of catch up maintenance.   Otherwise why would the owner be selling it for 50k? 
 

It’s cheaper to buy a very well maintained plane that is equipped the way you want it.  I’ve spent more after buying my plane than I did on the original purchase.  I could have purchased a plane in its current condition for probably 90-95k and I would be 15k ahead right now.   I do really like my plane now but I definitely didn’t do things the most efficient way.  

[catchman86]

I just bought a M20C this spring and much of the advice here is pretty much right on the money. PM me @JChrisAero if you want to discuss details. This was my first aircraft purchase and we are now about 4 months post purchase, first annual, 50 hours and one long trip completed. I'm happy to discuss my experience with you. 

[MikeOH]

@JChrisAero

$17K does NOT include purchase price; I paid cash for the plane.  It does include EVERYTHING else: I track charts, database subscriptions, cleaning supplies, spark plug washers, insurance, hangar rent, property tax, ...  Beyond adding ADSB out ($2,500) I really have not spent anything on upgrades.  I bought a plane with what I wanted: WAAS GPS (GNS430) and A/P (STEC-30 with altitude hold).

Roughly speaking, annual inspection (no repairs!) is 20 hours.  Shop rates are going to vary depending on where you are, but $100 to $150 per hour results in a $2K-$3K expense.

Tie-down/hangar is going to vary a lot with location, as well.  I pay $350/month for my hangar.  Some locations may have NO hangars available; check out where you are going to keep the plane.  If you have to drive an hour or more to get to your plane, how often are you going to fly?

Insurance is going to be a financial obstacle the first year, I'd guess over $3K based on your stated experience, but you should check with our resident insurance guru @Parker_Woodruff

[Rwsavory]

Keeping track of your expenses in owning and flying an airplane never leads to anything good.

[MikeOH]

10 minutes ago, Rwsavory said:

Keeping track of your expenses in owning and flying an airplane never leads to anything good.

How so?

Hasn't affected me.  I like to know what things cost; others don't.

[Rwsavory]

It’s a joke, kind of…

[dzeleski]

I just got back from flying in CO and AZ/UT in my J. If you plan on loading that C up near gross its not going to be happy during the summer months climbing high enough to avoid the turbulence and heat. If I was going to be doing that trip more then 1-2 times a year I would be getting a turbo or a 6 cylinder. My J was 250lbs under gross and it was still marginal with some of the rotors/waves through the mountains. In the cooler months it would be much more reasonable but now you are looking at hard IMC over the mountains and icing.

I personally dont think 40-60k is enough to get a good enough airplane for long XCs. That airplane is going to need significant love and significant upgrades to the panel. Personally I would try and get another 40k saved and buy something much nicer, even if that means waiting a bit longer.

My fixed costs for the year in my J are around 20k, but I have also had some bad annuals that have pushed that up closer to 30k.

[SKI]

As another date point, I fly a Cherokee 180 with the same engine as a C Model. I don't keep exact numbers on what it costs me annually but I'm pretty sure it's in the neighborhood of $10K. I do owner assisted annuals with an I/A friend of mine, He charges me very little and I do 95% of the work. It adds up quickly though. My hangar and insurance are $3500 before I ever turn the key. Fuel @10 Gal/Hr. $6/Gal. is another $3600 for 60 hours as example. There's usually another few thousand dollars of repairs needed throughout the year. It is absolutely true planes just always need something fixed. I think Mike's # of $17K above is probably pretty close depending on where your based at. Could be a little more or less but If I'm at 10K in a Cherokee a retract will definitely be 30-50% more than me.

[JChrisAero]

Thank you all for the responses. @catchman86, thank you especially for the details you gave, those were indispensable. Here are my take-aways. 

1. Initial purchase budget needs to be slightly higher, which if we do move to Alabama for this PhD, (the deciding reason for the plane) we will have room for.
2. If the initial inspection isn't good, WALK AWAY.
3. Maintenance costs are highly dependent on the initial condition of the aircraft, what equipment it has, and how much you're able to put the plane in good shape before it goes into the shop.
4. Fixed costs are highly dependent on your location and ratings. (100-200% difference in storage cost between Decatur and Madison County for example)
5. IFR is beneficial in every way, and the plane should be certified/certifiable  for IFR to begin with. (I'll get the rating ASAP using the plane. Way-way-way cheaper than what I was paying at a club/school)
6. Expenses that are not strictly necessary add up, but some are really nice to have.

We'll be watching the market carefully. If we do end up in Alabama and we find a solid C, I'll post our results here. I like data and I'll be sure to share.