One piece belly

[aviatoreb]

Byron - jet driven on here - did something labor intensive and very interesting and he did get some more speed from it.  He carefully radiuses his wings to the shape they are supposed to be theoretically, exactly and smooth with lots of body work puddy.  Before his paint job.  Is Byron here?  How much speed did you get?

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

All of the claimed speed comes from the relocation of antennas.
 

LASAR is pretty optimistic with their speed claims. Adding all of the claimed gains from all mods available for my F works out to 26.5kts. That would make it a Mooney 207…

If you put every speed mod on your F that Lasar sells or previously sold you would would effectively clone a 1977 J.  And @jetdriven routinely posts 180 kts IAS in his 1977 J which last time I looked is “207”.  So it is not outrageously out of the realm of possibility. 
 

Just saying…

 

[jetdriven]

40 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

If you put every speed mod on your F that Lasar sells or previously sold you would would effectively clone a 1977 J.  And @jetdriven routinely posts 180 kts IAS in his 1977 J which last time I looked is “207”.  So it is not outrageously out of the realm of possibility. 
 

Just saying…

 

its MPH, and it depends on altitude.  But it does around 194-199 MPH TAS at best.

 

[Shadrach]

On 8/14/2023 at 12:03 PM, 1980Mooney said:

If you put every speed mod on your F that Lasar sells or previously sold you would would effectively clone a 1977 J.  And @jetdriven routinely posts 180 kts IAS in his 1977 J which last time I looked is “207”.  So it is not outrageously out of the realm of possibility. 
 

Just saying…

 

So then I misspoke in another thread when I said my F was only about 13 to 15 mph slower than he and Becca's very well set up J.  The fastest time I recall him claiming for their J was 193.XXmph. The fastest race time I have seen documented is the 2021 air venture cup result of 188.64mph (164kts).   That is for sure "Hauling A" for a 4plc, 200hp XC airplane but 180kts it is not. 

 

Edit - Byron has clarified the situation.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

its MPH, and it depends on altitude.  But it does around 194-199 MPH TAS at best.

 

 

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

So then I misspoke in another thread when I said my F was only about 13 to 15 mph slower than he and Becca's very well set up J.  The fastest time I recall him claiming for their J was 193.XXmph. The fastest race time I have seen documented is the 2021 air venture cup result of 188.64mph (164kts).   That is for sure "Hauling A" for a 4plc, 200hp XC airplane but a 180kts it is not. 

 

Edit - Byron has clarified the situation.

I wish Mooney had never started using MPH in order to “pump the numbers“ for marketing purposes. Now I am confused and have probably misspoken. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[jetdriven]

It was 199 mph I think in the 2019 avc.  Slight tailwind but we also had an unscheduled stop for the whole race due to ifr at the destination. 

[Shadrach]

5 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

It was 199 mph I think in the 2019 avc.  Slight tailwind but we also had an unscheduled stop for the whole race due to ifr at the destination. 

Looks like it was actually 2016. 

199.01mph. is damn fast. 

Many of the planes ran faster than I would expect that day. 

C140  131.14mph

Piper Aero 185.25mph

Grumman Cheetah 171.75mph

[Fly Boomer]

7 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Only way to know if there is any speed increase is to instrument an aircraft and fly it before and after, anything else is speculation and even then sometimes you get mixed results.

I suspect you can instrument an aircraft and fly it before and after the weekend, and you will get different numbers.

[jetdriven]

I bought dual G5's and when I had the pitot static system checked we really scrutinized the airspeed.  The G5 reads 2 mph low and the mechanical airspeed was exact on.  The downside is my 10,000$ G5 pair calculates the TAS about 2 mph too low. Annoying as there's no calibration for the G5 like  there is for the altimeter. 

[Hank]

4 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

I wish Mooney had never started using MPH in order to “pump the numbers“ for marketing purposes. Now I am confused and have probably misspoken. 

You have it bass-ackwards. All planes used MPH up until sometime in the late 70s or so, when (most) everyone converted to Knots. Even FAA charts were in Statute Miles for a period.of.time

 

[FlyingDude]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Annoying as there's no calibration for the G5 like  there is for the altimeter.

G5 static gets calibrated. We did mine. Actually I did it with the AP who does my xpdr check. You set the altitude that g5 asks on the calibration page on the gizmo machine and once g5 is satisfied, it asks for a new altitude, up to 20k on my case because I can't go higher anyway. The pitot does not get calibrated.

[jetdriven]

27 minutes ago, FlyingDude said:

G5 static gets calibrated. We did mine. Actually I did it with the AP who does my xpdr check. You set the altitude that g5 asks on the calibration page on the gizmo machine and once g5 is satisfied, it asks for a new altitude, up to 20k on my case because I can't go higher anyway. The pitot does not get calibrated.

I guess I did not write that clearly, but there is no calibration for the Airspeed on the G5 like there is for the altitude. It's annoying that reads 2 miles per hour too high.

[A64Pilot]

16 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I suspect you can instrument an aircraft and fly it before and after the weekend, and you will get different numbers.

You will. That’s why you do multiple tests, throw out the high and low and average the rest, and darned if I know why, I really got into the weeds with my Maule learning and as close as I could get to washing out all the variables it’s cruise would be between 132 and 135 kts. I never could drive it any closer than that, and I never figured out why.

Without being a smartar$se that’s how you do it for Engineering, for marketing you fly several tests and take the highest number and honestly marketing sometimes isn’t above bumping that number some. I honestly believe sometimes there really isn’t any testing marketing just advertises a number that they think will sell airplanes. It really depends on who controls the company and how honest they are.

Anything that’s not part of the Certification and therefore not subject to FAA oversight could be suspect, but things that are like stall speed usually are dead on, but sometimes even those things can be possibly not realistic because procedures to meet the spec are unrealistic for the average pilot, Gulfstream got caught in that and killed the test crew with an unrealistic procedure trying to get takeoff length short enough for marketing. It really, really caused serious problems in the Atlanta ACO, they really made sure every I was dotted and every T crossed then and I had an aircraft in Certification so I know. But you know that’s the way it’s supposed to be, but big companies essentially self certify with supposedly FAA oversight so it really is the fox watching the hen house ref 737 Max.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/accidentreports/reports/aar1202.pdf

[A64Pilot]

10 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I guess I did not write that clearly, but there is no calibration for the Airspeed on the G5 like there is for the altitude. It's annoying that reads 2 miles per hour too high.

Usually nobody complains when something reads in the direction that is pleasing. 20 years or so ago I was in a Prius Chat room, there were big complaints that the MPG that the Prius calculated was 10% high and there was an outcry that Toyota needed to “fix” it because it was broken.

I laughed posting that it’s not broken, it’s doing exactly what Toyota wants, and it never got “fixed”

[1980Mooney]

15 hours ago, Hank said:

You have it bass-ackwards. All planes used MPH up until sometime in the late 70s or so, when (most) everyone converted to Knots. Even FAA charts were in Statute Miles for a period.of.time

"sometime in the late 70s or so, when (most) everyone converted to Knots."  - yeah that is my point - everyone except Mooney.  In 1977 the M20J should have been introduced as the "Mooney 175".

The military had always used nautical miles and knots.  The forerunner of the FAA, the "CAA" got their act together in 1952 and started using nautical miles/knots as their standard in 1952.

The FAA HISTORICAL CHRONOLOGY, 1926-1996 from Bureau of Transportation Statistics.gov site

"Jul 1, 1952: All CAA facilities and services were scheduled to begin using knots and nautical miles on this date, establishing a single military-civilian standard measurement for speed and distance used in air navigation. The change had been announced in the CAA Journal on Aug 15, 1950."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj2y87d4t6AAxWdlGoFHVHMDsk4FBAWegQIBhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Frosap.ntl.bts.gov%2Fview%2Fdot%2F37596%2Fdot_37596_DS1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw16YadklqK_FddrZRPQfF_X&opi=89978449

[Fly Boomer]

23 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I honestly believe sometimes there really isn’t any testing marketing just advertises a number that they think will sell airplanes. It really depends on who controls the company and how honest they are.

Bob Kromer, test pilot for the 252, once said that Marketing had already decided to call it the 252, and it was up to him to hit that speed.  The only way he could get it was at 28,000.  According to Bob, that’s how the 252 ended up getting certificated up to 28,000.  He said it was scary, and he would never do it again.

[jetdriven]

A 231 would do 252 mph at FL280 as well if it could make the same MP. 

[Aerodon]

Here are some pictures of a helicopter one piece belly.  Note the copper backplanes for the transponder antennas, and the neat cables for partially dropping the panel until you have disconnected the RF cables.

I've been wanting to move the transponder and DME antenna away from the Mooney side by side location, and also install a belly mounted VHF antenna.  

 

Aerodon

 

 

 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, Aerodon said:

Here are some pictures of a helicopter one pice belly.  Note the copper backplanes for the transponder antennas, and the neat cables for partially dropping the panel until you have disconnected the RF cables.

I've been wanting to move the transponder and DME antenna away from the Mooney side by side location, and also install a belly mounted VHF antenna.  

My 252 has some antennae hidden in the belly, but nothing is attached to the fiberglass.

[PT20J]

My M20J had the marker beacon antenna mounted above the one piece belly. The DME and transponder antennas were mounted to the belly. Only the transponder antenna remains.

[M20F-1968]

On 8/14/2023 at 2:22 PM, Shadrach said:

Looks like it was actually 2016. 

199.01mph. is damn fast. 

Many of the planes ran faster than I would expect that day. 

C140  131.14mph

Piper Aero 185.25mph

Grumman Cheetah 171.75mph

196 mph = 170 knots

I routinely can get 168 knots with everything forward at 10,000 ft.,

160 kts at 10,000 ft at 75% power 100 degrees ROP, and 

at 17,500 I get 175 kts 70% power 100 degrees ROP.

Highly modded to be essentially a J without inner gear doors.

John Breda