Insurance

[Pinecone]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

All I know is they turned me down, and I or my Wife haven’t had an accident in decades, I don’t think an at fault one in thirty years, but my Son has had a couple, none that hurt anyone, but he was on my policy then so they count, I’ll try again in a year or so.

USAA. isn’t what it used to be, it’s just another insurance agency now as they essentially let anyone in.

Actually they are like several difference insurance companies, under on level.  It depends on what your membership is based upon.

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

Actually they are like several difference insurance companies, under on level.  It depends on what your membership is based upon.

That may be, I’m a Retired Military Officer, had USAA while active duty for 15 yrs.

Back in the day they were restricted to Officers only, actually the company started when a few Military officers formed something similar to a Co-op and that insured their own cars, then of course they opened it up to other Officers under I believe the knowledge that they were low risk, because for example 1 DUI and your out, same for some other offenses.

So it used to be cheap, and if you ever needed them there were no questions asked, you could get anything over the phone, even years ago no hassles with signatures etc. I even took out a 100K short term loan without signing anything 15 years or so ago at a good rate.

‘Now they farm out a lot to Progressive like motorcycle and RV insurance, where those used to be covered by USAA.

Not so much anymore, it’s got me considering shopping around, but then maybe the industry has changed, I know since Covid a lot has. Very little work ethic now it seems, and employers seem to tolerate a lot more now.

[Pinecone]

The industry has changed.

But I have talked to USAA, there are different tables and perks based on how you qualify for membership.

Those things they do not insure, they work out deals with other companies for better rates than the general public and better coverage.  Which I think is great.

Like Falcon for aircraft, Travel Insured for travel insurance.  But you have to access through USAA.

When I bought my motorcycle in 1978, I called USAA.  They quoted me a crazy rate.  I asked that person, you really don't want to insure motorcycles, do you.  He flat out laughed and said, Yeap.

[Hank]

48 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

The industry has changed.

But I have talked to USAA, there are different tables and perks based on how you qualify for membership.

Those things they do not insure, they work out deals with other companies for better rates than the general public and better coverage.  Which I think is great.

Like Falcon for aircraft, Travel Insured for travel insurance.  But you have to access through USAA.

When I bought my motorcycle in 1978, I called USAA.  They quoted me a crazy rate.  I asked that person, you really don't want to insure motorcycles, do you.  He flat out laughed and said, Yeap.

When I bought the Mooney, USAA was my first call. They no longer offer aircraft insurance, and had no referrals available. 

When I bought my little boat, USAA referred me to the USAA desk at Progressive.

Yes, I've noticed that as USAA relaxed membership requirements in order to grow, their quality of service has declined. But overall, I'd still rate them above average. 

[Tim-37419]

I agree with Hank. I've been a USAA member since before my hair was gray and trust me that's a long time. They are nothing even remotely close to what they used to be. I'd even go as far to say Hank is being generous by rating  them above average. In my opinion, over about the last 10 years they have turned into just another bank/insurance company.

[GeeBee]

Even worse is if you are a victim of one of USAA's clients. You usually have to show them the courtroom doors. I've seen this several times

My barber was struck as a pedestrian by a lady insured by USAA. He was jogging and she went all the way up on a lawn (distracted driving) and hit him.  They tried to pawn off his medical expenses to Medicare, refused to pay his lost pay or the lease on his barber chair, let alone his pain and suffering. They claimed because he was over 65 they didn't owe him medical or wages. They are some of the meanest and most callous people I have ever seen. They ended up paying a lot more because of their intransigence.

 

[Echo]

I have been with USAA for 39 years.  They have paid for a flooded basement, A hail damaged roof and a straight line wind claim that required roof replacement.  Their claims service has been first rate for me.  Wax on to the "Wax off".

[Echo]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

Even worse is if you are a victim of one of USAA's clients. You usually have to show them the courtroom doors. I've seen this several times

My barber was struck as a pedestrian by a lady insured by USAA. He was jogging and she went all the way up on a lawn (distracted driving) and hit him.  They tried to pawn off his medical expenses to Medicare, refused to pay his lost pay or the lease on his barber chair, let alone his pain and suffering. They claimed because he was over 65 they didn't owe him medical or wages. They are some of the meanest and most callous people I have ever seen. They ended up paying a lot more because of their intransigence.

 

Film at 11...

[Echo]

13 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

While I don’t have numbers to back it up, but the majority of people only carry what the law requires, then add in that most people don’t have significant assets, and while this is my opinion but I think those that don’t are over represented in txting / DUI / dangerous driving types of accidents.

In other words it’s my bet that the vast majority of the time all you could get from being a victim is the min required $10,000, and frankly is $10,000 even worth going after, how much of that does the Lawyer get?

People with limited assets are what Lawyers refer to as judgement proof, no doubt you would win but as there is nothing to get no Lawyer is taking the case on consignment, so you pay thousands to get a judgement you can hang on the wall, because that’s all you could get.

And yet we require the Pizza delivery guy to pay more per month than their utility bill for what amounts to a worthless amount of insurance.

I say drop the insurance requirement and if you have the means and are concerned, buy uninsured motorist coverage, I bet most have it whether they realize it or not.

 

I disagree.  Driving is a priviledge.  Liability should be mandatory for drivers.  If you can not afford insurance, ride a bus.

[Pinecone]

10 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Even worse is if you are a victim of one of USAA's clients. You usually have to show them the courtroom doors. I've seen this several times

My barber was struck as a pedestrian by a lady insured by USAA. He was jogging and she went all the way up on a lawn (distracted driving) and hit him.  They tried to pawn off his medical expenses to Medicare, refused to pay his lost pay or the lease on his barber chair, let alone his pain and suffering. They claimed because he was over 65 they didn't owe him medical or wages. They are some of the meanest and most callous people I have ever seen. They ended up paying a lot more because of their intransigence.

 

Since they are a membership organization, that is exactly how I want them to be.  Fight tooth and nail to not pay claims to non-USAA members.

But I have not seen a reduction in the level of service.  Neither has my Dad. 

And he has been a member long enough that when he calls and gives his number, they wait for more digits, then ask him, Is that ALL.  He says yes, then he normally gets, I have NEVER seen a number that short.

 

[Pinecone]

8 hours ago, Echo said:

I have been with USAA for 39 years.  They have paid for a flooded basement, A hail damaged roof and a straight line wind claim that required roof replacement.  Their claims service has been first rate for me.  Wax on to the "Wax off".

My Dad had a flooded basement. House up the street caught fire.  It seems the fire main and the water main was the same system, so when they hooked up, they managed to send a pressure pulse that literally blew up his whole house filter.  He called, they had some out within an hour or so to fix the water system and start cleaning.  They removed everything (and that was a lot) from the basement and put it in storage.  Restored the basement, including new floor tile and moved everything back in.  ONE CALL.

He has been a member for 73 years.   Whenever I call them, I ask why he and I are not in their commercials.  We HAVE been members for a lifetime.  I am at 43 years.

[Echo]

25 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

My Dad had a flooded basement. House up the street caught fire.  It seems the fire main and the water main was the same system, so when they hooked up, they managed to send a pressure pulse that literally blew up his whole house filter.  He called, they had some out within an hour or so to fix the water system and start cleaning.  They removed everything (and that was a lot) from the basement and put it in storage.  Restored the basement, including new floor tile and moved everything back in.  ONE CALL.

He has been a member for 73 years.   Whenever I call them, I ask why he and I are not in their commercials.  We HAVE been members for a lifetime.  I am at 43 years.

Wow.  73 and 43 years is impressive.  Yikes on that loss.  We had a 12" water main break while on vacation.  Our first house.  Had a side door that went to basement and three steps up to living area.  Flooded our basement.  City took care of remediation.  Thankfully a friend next door let them in and he took several long guns that were partially submerged and dried the stocks.  All appliances (washer/dryer and gas heat) were damaged.  What a mess.

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

Since they are a membership organization, that is exactly how I want them to be.  Fight tooth and nail to not pay claims to non-USAA members.

But I have not seen a reduction in the level of service.  Neither has my Dad. 

And he has been a member long enough that when he calls and gives his number, they wait for more digits, then ask him, Is that ALL.  He says yes, then he normally gets, I have NEVER seen a number that short.

 

One word. Punitive. When your insured was so blatantly in the wrong and your "tooth and nail" fight results in paying out punitive damages for your intransigence. Then it is "pennywise and pound foolish". The job of an insurance company is to properly adjudicate and pay losses, not create new ones. Creating punitive damages through intransigence benefits no one, not the policy holders who have to pay higher premiums due to the company's incompetence or the victims who suffer.

In addition one of the reasons I buy liability is insurance is if I am in the wrong, I want the victims of my negligence to be quickly and fairly compensated for their loss for my own peace of mind. Not dragged through the court system to get what is legally and rightfully due to them. I would be personally mortified to have my insurance company do what they did to my barber.

 

[GeeBee]

It does however point out the importance of buying "good paper". You want an insurance company who will quickly and fairly settle claims regardless of the type of insurance. That is why you pay them. My insurance agents one of whom you all know will tell you I don't always choose the cheapest, but I look to their reputation for fairness and promptness to my needs.

 

 

[Tim-37419]

36 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

It does however point out the importance of buying "good paper". You want an insurance company who will quickly and fairly settle claims regardless of the type of insurance. That is why you pay them. My insurance agents one of whom you all know will tell you I don't always choose the cheapest, but I look to their reputation for fairness and promptness to my needs.

 

 

That is very good advice - you get what you pay for, don't buy the cheapest unless you know what you are getting into.

[A64Pilot]

12 hours ago, Echo said:

I disagree.  Driving is a priviledge.  Liability should be mandatory for drivers.  If you can not afford insurance, ride a bus.

You miss the point, the point is the insurance is first way overpriced and secondly pretty much worthless.

10K is pretty much nothing. Get in an accident that was clearly the others guys fault, like the one where the Woman was run over in their yard, you get to fight for 10K, 10K that’s it. I’m pretty sure the fight costs more.

All those injury Lawyer ads about Dewy Cheatem and Howe got me 1 Million in my pocket are pure BS, one in a million cases if they even exist.

They may get a 1 million judgement but if the insurance or assets don’t exist, we’ll your not getting blood from a turnip.

[Parker_Woodruff]

17 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

@papapatoto asked about "flying naked"

Insurance is comprised of Liability and Hull

• Liability to compensate others for your actions that cause damage to others
• Hull to compensate you for any damage to your plane regardless whether you caused it, others caused it or natural occurrence

Anyone in a Municipally owned hangar (and probably privately owned hangar leased from a savvy owner) is required to have Liability insurance - generally a $1 mil.

If there is a loan on a plane the bank will require full insurance coverage

If your plane is in an LLC, you as the pilot will still be personally liable

If you have the funds you can self-insure your Hull 

• If you have an accident, you can decide to pay for repair or just walk away and scrap it

If you have the funds, knowledge and time (or just don't care about your family or estate) you can self-insure your Liability

• If you have an accident which harms others (passengers, other plane, property, your plane catches fire and you burn your and other hangars down, etc) you hire and pay your lawyers to defend yourself against claims
• You write checks for settlements
• You can file bankruptcy after losing any large lawsuit which you can't pay
• If you die in the crash your family or estate can deal with it

@A64Pilot said he is naked on the C-140 and Maule but has liability and hull on his Mooney

Who else flies naked?

Does any company even offer Liability only insurance to Mooney owners ?

@Parker_Woodruff - this is your area of expertise - any sage advice?

I can't give legal advice, but not all the municipalities require insurance.

Liability only is pretty inexpensive.  The insurance carriers provide the cost of defense and almost never counts against the liability coverage limit. (Defense costs are in addition to the coverage limit).

Hull claims are quite common, especially while the aircraft is parked or during ground operations.

I write some liability only policies on Mooneys in the approx $300-$400/year range.

[Ron McBride]

Remember, the insurance company represents themselves first.  Tha attorneys that they hire represent the insurance company.   They will screw you over.     You should hire an attorney whose specialization is insurance law if there is a large claim against you.     I did in one case, and the insurance company attorney asked me why?   I told her that she is here for the insurance company, not me.   She was not happy, her co-counsel just smiled.

[DonMuncy]

19 minutes ago, Ron McBride said:

Remember, the insurance company represents themselves first.  Tha attorneys that they hire represent the insurance company.   They will screw you over.     You should hire an attorney whose specialization is insurance law if there is a large claim against you.     I did in one case, and the insurance company attorney asked me why?   I told her that she is here for the insurance company, not me.   She was not happy, her co-counsel just smiled.

Not necessarily true at all. I practiced law in Texas for 35 years, a large part of that doing civil defense litigation. An attorney's client is always his client, no matter who is paying him. I am sure there are unethical and bad people in every profession but in those years, I never saw a lawyer violate his obligation to protect his client first.  Some states (like Louisiana, but not Texas) allow suits to be brought directly against the insurance company of the insured, and in those cases, the insurance company is represented as well. 

[tgardnerh]

In addition one of the reasons I buy liability is insurance is if I am in the wrong, I want the victims of my negligence to be quickly and fairly compensated for their loss for my own peace of mind. Not dragged through the court system to get what is legally and rightfully due to them. I would be personally mortified to have my insurance company do what they did to my barber.
 

Until recently my family was "judgement proof" (grad school + residency), but I made it a point to carry as much liability as the company would write for exactly this reason.

Driving and flying impose risk on the rest of the world, and we have a responsibility to cover that risk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, tgardnerh said:

Until recently my family was "judgement proof" (grad school + residency), but I made it a point to carry as much liability as the company would write for exactly this reason.

Driving and flying impose risk on the rest of the world, and we have a responsibility to cover that risk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are never "judgement proof". In most cases your future earnings can be attached to make the damaged party whole. If you are dead, your estate can be sued. The only time you are judgement proof is if you die penniless. Even if you declare bankruptcy, the court will make create a creditor.

 

 

[Pinecone]

5 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

All very interesting but as @Hank pointed out, USAA do not provide any liability or hull insurance for pilots, aircraft or the aviation industry.  And they do not associate with anyone that does nor do they make referrals.  So in the context of this topic USAA = USELESS......

That is 100% wrong.  If you go through USAA you get a special number for Falcon, and it gets you to a group at Falcon that only deals with USAA customers.

[Echo]

5 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

You miss the point, the point is the insurance is first way overpriced and secondly pretty much worthless.

10K is pretty much nothing. Get in an accident that was clearly the others guys fault, like the one where the Woman was run over in their yard, you get to fight for 10K, 10K that’s it. I’m pretty sure the fight costs more.

All those injury Lawyer ads about Dewy Cheatem and Howe got me 1 Million in my pocket are pure BS, one in a million cases if they even exist.

They may get a 1 million judgement but if the insurance or assets don’t exist, we’ll your not getting blood from a turnip.

No, I didn't.

[Echo]

5 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

You miss the point, the point is the insurance is first way overpriced and secondly pretty much worthless.

10K is pretty much nothing. Get in an accident that was clearly the others guys fault, like the one where the Woman was run over in their yard, you get to fight for 10K, 10K that’s it. I’m pretty sure the fight costs more.

All those injury Lawyer ads about Dewy Cheatem and Howe got me 1 Million in my pocket are pure BS, one in a million cases if they even exist.

They may get a 1 million judgement but if the insurance or assets don’t exist, we’ll your not getting blood from a turnip.

Do you think perhaps millions of drivers that pay for the minimum liability coverage adds up to a few dollars?  (rhetorical).  If someone is at fault and hits me $10k in coverage will likely pay to repair my car.  Why the &$#@ should society and those that have insurance bare the entire burdon?  Ten thousand may be "nothing" to you, but that is a lot of money to me and many.  Claims adjusters, in my personal experience, have been fair and professional.  I have never required a lawyer and I don't play one on T.V.

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

@Hank , on the prior page, reported just the opposite firsthand experience with USAA when  insuring his Mooney. Perhaps his USAA rep forgot that day because they are just a middle-man for Falcon.

I also don't know when he bought his airplane.  I started the process spring last year.