Insurance - IFR rating

[bcg]

Those of you with an instrument rating, how much did it lower your insurance?

 

I have 150 hours in my Mooney and just got my Private so I'm finally able to get insurance. I got a quote from Avemco today for $3600, which really doesn't seem horrible for the first year. However, I'm working on my instrument right now and expect to have it done in 6 - 8 weeks so I'm wondering if there's enough of a savings to make it worthwhile to just wait until I finish that to get insurance. I've been without for 9 months now so another 1-2 months without doesn't really bother me. Honestly, I really just want the liability coverage.

 

Anyway, I appreciate any input.

 

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

 

 

[PT20J]

Why don’t you ask Avemco?

[Hank]

Back in 2010, completing my Instrument Rating dropped my premium by about a third.

This was after flying my C for 100 hours in my first year (2007) cut my premiums in half (from $3100).

Good luck, fly lots and have fun!

[bcg]

Back in 2010, completing my Instrument Rating dropped my premium by about a third.
This was after flying my C for 100 hours in my first year (2007) cut my premiums in half (from $3100).
Good luck, fly lots and have fun!

Good feedback, thanks. If it's a 50% savings, it's definitely worth waiting.

I've done a lot of flying since I bought it, I expect to be well over 200 hours in it in my first year of ownership. I've only had it since August and I'm 3/4 of the way there.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[bcg]

Why don’t you ask Avemco?

I will but thought feedback from others would be useful data to have as well.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[toto]

There are a bunch of anecdotes about IR impact on insurance premiums in various threads on here, but the MS expert is Parker. He may be able to shed some light. 
 

@Parker_Woodruff

[Vance Harral]

Avemco will update your status, adjust your rates, and send you a pro-rated refund when you get your instrument rating.  Or, at least they were willing to do that a couple of years ago when we added a partner to our partnership without an instrument rating, who finished up that rating shortly after joining the partnership.  Assuming that's still true (call them and confirm), you can take the $3600 rate in the short term.  You're not locking yourself into the full $3600 for the entire year, you would presumably get a rebate from them on completion of your IR.

[McMooney]

I was really unlucky, i flew my Birdy for a few hundred hours before getting my IR, believe insurance was some where around 1600$.

paid 1900$ literally one day prior to tmy IR checkride, bad luck.  Expected a steep discount the next year but UNFORTUNATELY t was the year rates really shot up so  ended up paying more 8(

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

27 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

Avemco will update your status, adjust your rates, and send you a pro-rated refund when you get your instrument rating.  Or, at least they were willing to do that a couple of years ago when we added a partner to our partnership without an instrument rating, who finished up that rating shortly after joining the partnership.  Assuming that's still true (call them and confirm), you can take the $3600 rate in the short term.  You're not locking yourself into the full $3600 for the entire year, you would presumably get a rebate from them on completion of your IR.

This is the correct answer as far as I understand things.  Get your insurance now and then have Avemco update your rate once you get your IR.   I wouldn’t go without insurance because you may get a lower rate in the future, especially since you are statistically most likely to have an issue in your first 100 hours in a new plane. 

[Boilermonkey]

About 40% when I got my IR.  I was more motivated by being able to fly more due to IFR conditions and increased safety.

[201er]

10 hours ago, bcg said:

 

Those of you with an instrument rating, how much did it lower your insurance?

 

I have 150 hours in my Mooney and just got my Private so I'm finally able to get insurance. I got a quote from Avemco today for $3600, which really doesn't seem horrible for the first year. 

It’s not just the rating. You’ll also end up increasing your total time by 25% and particularly retract time. However, going uninsured over saving a few hundred or thousand bucks doesn’t make sense.

[bcg]

1 hour ago, Boilermonkey said:

About 40% when I got my IR.  I was more motivated by being able to fly more due to IFR conditions and increased safety.

I'm not getting the rating just for insurance savings, I'm doing it because my dad made me promise I would as soon as I finished my Private. He says it'll save my life one day and with 22,000 hours under his belt, I have no reason not to believe him.

I've also had several trips that I wouldn't have been able to make without bringing a CFII along so we could file, and a few that I haven't been able to make because I didn't have anyone available to go with me, so I'm very motivated by that.

To be honest, I prefer flying on an instrument plan over VFR, it's easier in a lot of ways. And, it's usually a pretty smooth ride, plus there's something really satisfying about popping up through the clouds to see clear blue skies and who doesn't like popping out the bottom at 300' AGL on speed, glide and center line? It's pretty cool when the runway just appears before you and you're perfectly configured to land.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk
 

[Parker_Woodruff]

5%-20% or maybe 25% depending on the carrier.  In time, it opens up other carrier(s) that require the instrument rating to even quote particular Mooney models which can further help your premium.

[MIm20c]

4 hours ago, 201er said:

However, going uninsured over saving a few hundred or thousand bucks doesn’t make sense.

He’s not interested in hull coverage, I get that on cheap planes. However, no liability insurance !?!  It’s inexpensive and going another few months without to save a hundred dollars…with random cfi’s and check ride pilots…

[bcg]

He’s not interested in hull coverage, I get that on cheap planes. However, no liability insurance !?!  It’s inexpensive and going another few months without to save a hundred dollars…with random cfi’s and check ride pilots…

I'd love to have just liability. When I bought the plane, nobody would offer it for a student in a retract, period. If I can get just cheap liability now, I'll do that for sure. I'm still shopping and Parker is working on quoting it right now.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[haymak3r]

There is one company in the US that would insure me as a student with a retract plane. And the premium was over 7k for the year. So glad that didn't last very long, so that I was able to get back most of that premium..

[kortopates]

I'd love to have just liability. When I bought the plane, nobody would offer it for a student in a retract, period. If I can get just cheap liability now, I'll do that for sure. I'm still shopping and Parker is working on quoting it right now.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

I doubt any DPE would get in the aircraft uninsured. Some younger CFI’s may not care, but wouldn’t count on it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vance Harral]

16 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I doubt any DPE would get in the aircraft uninsured.

I've never been asked for proof of insurance on any of my 5 check rides, but that's just one data point.

I suppose DPEs would like to be reimbursed for medical (or funeral) expenses if the applicant crashes during a check ride, though there would certainly be a court fight about the DPE's own responsibility if substantial assets are at stake.  But that's not the full extent of the concern.  If a check ride results in damage to persons or property not directly involved in the check ride, and someone asserts the DPE has liability, the aircraft owner's insurance isn't going to cover the DPE.  The DPE needs their own insurance for that.  There's also no clause I'm aware of in the insurance policy for my airplane which waives the right of the aircraft owner's insurer to subrogate against a DPE.  Again, the DPE would need their own insurance to cover that situation, though perhaps this is so rare that it's just "customary" for an insurer not to subrogate in this case.

I just assumed all DPEs carry some amount of personal insurance for these sorts of concerns, and therefore don't care (much) about whether the owner of the aircraft is insured.    But I've never asked an examiner about it.  Happy to hear info from someone more informed.

[McMooney]

43 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I doubt any DPE would get in the aircraft uninsured. Some younger CFI’s may not care, but wouldn’t count on it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've never had anyone except for the airport where I lease my hanger even ask for insurance

[kortopates]

I've never been asked for proof of insurance on any of my 5 check rides, but that's just one data point.
I suppose DPEs would like to be reimbursed for medical (or funeral) expenses if the applicant crashes during a check ride, though there would certainly be a court fight about the DPE's own responsibility if substantial assets are at stake.  But that's not the full extent of the concern.  If a check ride results in damage to persons or property not directly involved in the check ride, and someone asserts the DPE has liability, the aircraft owner's insurance isn't going to cover the DPE.  The DPE needs their own insurance for that.  There's also no clause I'm aware of in the insurance policy for my airplane which waives the right of the aircraft owner's insurer to subrogate against a DPE.  Again, the DPE would need their own insurance to cover that situation, though perhaps this is so rare that it's just "customary" for an insurer not to subrogate in this case.
I just assumed all DPEs carry some amount of personal insurance for these sorts of concerns, and therefore don't care (much) about whether the owner of the aircraft is insured.    But I've never asked an examiner about it.  Happy to hear info from someone more informed.

Vance, your right to challenge that statement. I have scheduled a number of checkride’s with student owned aircraft- the only time this would be an issue. And as i recall the circumstances never did the DPE ask or mention insurance documents. Airworthiness was always a bigger challenge just because clubs or schools make sure their records are always ready.
That said, I’ve never been in that situation of being uninsured and was assuming- which is never good.

I have a checkride scheduled with a DPE in an owner Mooney in a couple weeks and will ask the DPE about this out of curiosity.

I do know the DPE is never PIC on a checkride and that offers some protection but i sure haven’t reviewed and accident cases either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Vance, your right to challenge that statement. I have have scheduled a number of checkride’s with student owned aircraft- the only time this would be an issue. And as i recall the circumstances never did the DPE ask or mention insurance documents. . . .

I have checkride scheduled with a DPE in an owner Mooney in a couple weeks and will ask the DPE about this out of curiosity.

I do know the DPE is never PIC on a checkride and that offers some protection . . .

So then he and his buddies will start asking! And the bar will be higher, and will spread beyond your local area thanks to Zoom, conferences and periodic training discussions. 

Maybe just work it into a conversation over tall, cold adult beverages one evening, not related to any particular checkride discussion?

[kortopates]

So then he and his buddies will start asking! And the bar will be higher, and will spread beyond your local area thanks to Zoom, conferences and periodic training discussions. 
Maybe just work it into a conversation over tall, cold adult beverages one evening, not related to any particular checkride discussion?

I am sure they and the FAA are well aware of the risk exposure and are not asking based on a well reasoned and likely their own insurance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vance Harral]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

I do know the DPE is never PIC on a checkride

This may be meaningful to the FAA in terms of certificate enforcement.  But it means absolutely nothing in civil liability court, and my guess is it therefore means nothing to insurance companies either.

[phxcobraz]

I’m hoping to finish my instrument this fall. AVEMCO quoted me 10% reduction once I have it.

Flying 100hrs in the plane also dropped it 10%. 
 

Doing the WINGS basic course(which I did as part of a BFR this year) also dropped it a bit. 

[bcg]

I’m hoping to finish my instrument this fall. AVEMCO quoted me 10% reduction once I have it.
Flying 100hrs in the plane also dropped it 10%. 
 
Doing the WINGS basic course(which I did as part of a BFR this year) also dropped it a bit. 

I actually just submitted my wings Basic Credit flight activity. I forgot about that giving an insurance reduction.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk