seeking mx advice on mysterious sound heard in plane after landing

[Jpravi8tor]

I would like a video showing the ammeter whilst this noise is occurring, then pull the gear breaker to see if the noise stops

[jaylw314]

On 2/27/2023 at 11:37 AM, faridaamar said:

thank you! do you know anyone near KCCB who you would recommend / trust to deal with this kind of issue? if I fly it, pull the circuit breaker, and do not retract the gear ... how can I recreate the problem? do you think it will happen again if the motor is not receiving any power?

CrownAir down in San Diego MYF is a Mooney Service Center, but I think Top Gun and Foothill might be closer?

[takair]

Regarding ferry, even with gear down, there may be risk.  If the motor keeps trying to run, it may not be providing enough force on the overcenter links.  I thin that at a minimum the gear torques need to be checked before too much movement.  I’ve seen a similar issue on an F and one of the gear pushrod tubes was bent in such a way that under load it would flex and not provide enough force to meet torque checks, and the gear light would flicker.  Even towing risked the gear.  Not trying to be dramatic, but it is worth checking that the links are overcenter before movement, let alone flight.  Haven’t heard from OP in a while, so maybe it is sorted out.

[glbtrottr]

Contact me via PM to refer you to a mooney specific mechanic / mooney pilot who will help isolate your issue by flying into cable and giving you a hand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kelpro999]

23 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

CrownAir down in San Diego MYF is a Mooney Service Center, but I think Top Gun and Foothill might be closer?

CrownAir is not but I think you mean Coast however they don’t want to be. 

[faridaamar]

Hello again everyone! My mechanics were finally able to recreate the issue, hooray! They cycled the landing gear three times and the problem reappeared all three times. They were able to take things apart and see with their own eyes the issue. Thankfully it has now been verified, I always feel a little crazy when I say there is something wrong while flying and they can't replicate the issue in the shop. lol.

Here's what they explained to me, "We checked the landing gear rigging and it checks out ok. The problem is when the gear goes down to the full down position, then the gear motor starts unwinding to up slightly until it kicks back on. This slight movement is constantly happening until you pull the breaker. That’s why the unsafe light is going on and off that is the gear moving from full down to unsafe and then back. I believe you need a new or repaired landing gear motor, problem is that they a hard to find." 

So, now the hunt is on for a ITT LA11C2114 landing gear motor to replace the one I have entirely. Curtis and I have been searching for days now with no luck, so if any of you have one lying around or know someone who might, please let me know. I would appreciate any help in the hunt.

Ps. For everyone concerned earlier, my plane has always been at Foothill in KCCB (as mentioned in the first message) which is a Mooney Service Center. 

[faridaamar]

Spoke to Don Maxwell and he said a Dukes 1496 or a Dukes 1057 motor would also work. 

[hammdo]

Have you contacted ITT Aerospace?

https://www.ittaerospace.com/en-US/Products/Actuators-(1)/

Could be an option…

-Don

[Guest]

1 hour ago, faridaamar said:

Hello again everyone! My mechanics were finally able to recreate the issue, hooray! They cycled the landing gear three times and the problem reappeared all three times. They were able to take things apart and see with their own eyes the issue. Thankfully it has now been verified, I always feel a little crazy when I say there is something wrong while flying and they can't replicate the issue in the shop. lol.

Here's what they explained to me, "We checked the landing gear rigging and it checks out ok. The problem is when the gear goes down to the full down position, then the gear motor starts unwinding to up slightly until it kicks back on. This slight movement is constantly happening until you pull the breaker. That’s why the unsafe light is going on and off that is the gear moving from full down to unsafe and then back. I believe you need a new or repaired landing gear motor, problem is that they a hard to find." 

So, now the hunt is on for a ITT LA11C2114 landing gear motor to replace the one I have entirely. Curtis and I have been searching for days now with no luck, so if any of you have one lying around or know someone who might, please let me know. I would appreciate any help in the hunt.

Ps. For everyone concerned earlier, my plane has always been at Foothill in KCCB (as mentioned in the first message) which is a Mooney Service Center. 

Does your gear actuator have 20:1 or 40:1 gears?  40:1 would make it harder for the gears to turn backward releasing the tension.  See SIM20-112 on the Mooney website.

[faridaamar]

52 minutes ago, hammdo said:

Have you contacted ITT Aerospace?

https://www.ittaerospace.com/en-US/Products/Actuators-(1)/

Could be an option…

-Don

Hi! Thank you, great idea. I am trying to reach Arte Lewis now... if you know him plz give him a nudge for me! Hah...

[hammdo]

What M20Dic said — lots of detail in the SB:

https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SIM20-112A.pdf
 

-Don

[PT20J]

Persistence pays off!

It would be hard to tell without taking it apart, but I would suspect a damaged gear, maybe missing a tooth. The reason the ITT / Dukes actuators don’t have a no-back clutch is that the drive train uses a worm and wheel gear (like the flap actuator) which should be inherently resistant to back drive. 

If replacement 40:1 gears are available, it might be rebuildable. I would talk to Don Maxwell about that. You might also talk to LASAR since they did the rebuild for you and see if they might make it good, but I understand a lot of people (including the guy that was the expert on landing gear actuators) have left the company.

Skip

[Ragsf15e]

If nobody is rebuilding these now, We need to get a known place like Aeromotors to start.  We also need a source for new 40:1 gears.  The motors and the gears last a long time if we take care of them but eventually they need some love.

[Ragsf15e]

16 hours ago, faridaamar said:

Spoke to Don Maxwell and he said a Dukes 1496 or a Dukes 1057 motor would also work. 

Do you know what gears you have and if it’s been taken apart and serviced with the proper formula of grease on schedule?  There is a check for gear wear. They are a weaker point in the system if not properly serviced….

[faridaamar]

5 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

If nobody is rebuilding these now, We need to get a known place like Aeromotors to start.  We also need a source for new 40:1 gears.  The motors and the gears last a long time if we take care of them but eventually they need some love.

Totally agree! When I reached out to Aeromotors someone named Ole replied with "Sorry I do not show that we have the landing gear motor on our Capabilities List." But, now that there us the new safety bulletin released on 3/3/23 about this issue (attached), one of these guys should capitalize on it and make some parts for Mooneys! I can't possibly be the only one.

FAA SAIB M20 Landing Gear 2023-02.pdf

[hammdo]

Sounds like owners should hook up with a confirmed list who need service, contact Aero Motors with a proposal and see what happens. That might get more traction…

-Don

[Guest]

7 hours ago, PT20J said:

Persistence pays off!

It would be hard to tell without taking it apart, but I would suspect a damaged gear, maybe missing a tooth. The reason the ITT / Dukes actuators don’t have a no-back clutch is that the drive train uses a worm and wheel gear (like the flap actuator) which should be inherently resistant to back drive. 

If replacement 40:1 gears are available, it might be rebuildable. I would talk to Don Maxwell about that. You might also talk to LASAR since they did the rebuild for you and see if they might make it good, but I understand a lot of people (including the guy that was the expert on landing gear actuators) have left the company.

Skip

We spoke with Top Gun about an Eaton actuator that was giving issues.  They were very accommodating.  Might be worth checking with them as well.

[Fritz1]

all good calls, if motor is not rebuildable I think there is an upgrade kit to a later model actuator, I put this kit in my 68Gmodel in 98, current 201 part at the time with t-handle instead crank, call the following 

Paul Loewen Mooney Salvage

C&W in Caldwell

Weber in PA

Brian Kendrick in TX

Cole in Georgia

Airmods in Robbinsville NJ

Lasar

Google the part #

First of all you need somebody on the job that wants to fox this problem, if you need to go to Lasar, fly there with gear down

 

 

 

 

 

 

[carusoam]

Nice list Fritz!

Add some easy contacts to that…

For pre-flown parts…

@Alan Fox and @SheryLoewen (same Loewen in the Fritz list)

Best regards,

-a-

[Fly Boomer]

14 hours ago, Fritz1 said:

First of all you need somebody on the job that wants to fox this problem, if you need to go to Lasar, fly there with gear down

Are you referring to the new location in the Pacific NW?  I don't know what the California location can do these days.