Flying for your corporate job

[Mike A]

My company informed me today that I am no longer allowed to use my personal aircraft for corporate travel. When I inquired as to what the change was, I was told that our legal council reviewed the policy after another pilot somewhere else asked and stated that we did not have “plane insurance” and crashing into a school would ruin the company.  I countered the person informing me with the hypothetical of driving my car into one and he said that we have auto insurance and it’s not the same.

Has anyone else come across this or know where the real liability would land?  Any ideas on how to counter?

Loss of use for work travel would really be catastrophic to my justification for continuing to own my K and I want to get through this somehow. 

[201Steve]

Far as I’d be concerned, if they aren’t paying you during that travel time, they could kiss my….

but, I assume you probably get mileage or airline reimbursement of some sort so I suspect it’d get a little grey there. 
 

I don’t fly for a living either, so what do I know

[Rwsavory]

This is a common policy for larger businesses. It's going to be a hard sell to try to get around it. The liability would occur if you have an accident while flying "within the scope of your employment." The fancy legal term is Respondeat Superior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respondeat_superior 

[N201MKTurbo]

Oh, I could tell you stories about the HR director who thought she was going to save me from certain death, but I have to run out to the hangar and work on the plane…

[Schllc]

30 minutes ago, Mike A said:

My company informed me today that I am no longer allowed to use my personal aircraft for corporate travel. When I inquired as to what the change was, I was told that our legal council reviewed the policy after another pilot somewhere else asked and stated that we did not have “plane insurance” and crashing into a school would ruin the company.  I countered the person informing me with the hypothetical of driving my car into one and he said that we have auto insurance and it’s not the same.

Has anyone else come across this or know where the real liability would land?  Any ideas on how to counter?

Loss of use for work travel would really be catastrophic to my justification for continuing to own my K and I want to get through this somehow. 

As absurd an example as that is, I would think there could be an indemnification agreement, or a rider on the insurance that could satisfy the liability, ….
They can’t reimburse you for the expense of the plane anyway right?  
I’d buy a first class ticket and submit for reimbursement, then fly my plane!

 

[kortopates]

every large company i worked at prohibited my GA flying; for the liability reasons stated. i would get away with it saying i was driving for awhile but then taking a colleague along and the word eventually gets out.
Don’t think you’re going to fix this.


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[EricJ]

I had the same experiences with corporate policies on travel as an employee, but as a consultant they seem to not care as much since you're not an employee.  

 

[HawkGT]

In the past I claimed gsa personal car mileage rates for reimbursement and didn't press the question I didn't want to hear the answer.  My boss knows what I am doing and luckily legal doesnt so it has never been a problem.  My argument has always been that the gsa mileage rate is less than what I am incurring so its reasonable for all, but this does not address liability concerns. That said my boss flies on one of our corporate jets so she didn't think much about it.

[Mike A]

4 minutes ago, HawkGT said:

In the past I claimed gsa personal car mileage rates for reimbursement and didn't press the question I didn't want to hear the answer.  My boss knows what I am doing and luckily legal doesnt so it has never been a problem.  My argument has always been that the gsa mileage rate is less than what I am incurring so its reasonable for all, but this does not address liability concerns. That said my boss flies on one of our corporate jets so she didn't think much about it.

Yeah I used to do the same at a previous employer. I specifically asked when I joined my current firm, but I guess the response I got was financial and not legal. I was able to take the cheaper of IRS rate or equivalent airfare. 

[Brandt]

Check with counsel about adding the company as a named insured on your policy, and ask what liability limits would make them comfortable.  

[Pinecone]

15 minutes ago, HawkGT said:

In the past I claimed gsa personal car mileage rates for reimbursement and didn't press the question I didn't want to hear the answer. 

FYI, there is a GSA Personal Aircraft rate.  Currently at $1.81 per mile.

But they normally will only pay you what the airline ticket would be.

 

 

[Mike A]

1 hour ago, Brandt said:

Check with counsel about adding the company as a named insured on your policy, and ask what liability limits would make them comfortable.  

I would think that whatever we make our subcontractors carry would be sufficient, but i’m sure that would be cost prohibitive. is there a marketplace for short term insurance policies?

[takair]

Ironically, this is a policy even at some of the big aerospace companies.  A few years ago, I tried to lobby AOPA to consider this as an opportunity to grow the pilot population, but didn’t get any traction.  I suspect that during GAs prime time….the 50s to 70s….much of the pilot population used their airplanes for corporate travel.  Liability took this privilege. 

[The Other Red Baron]

A few of us have brought it up multiple times at our company and our legal eagles don't like it either.  I'd be interested in the result of Brandt's suggestion if you go that route.

[PMcClure]

2 hours ago, Brandt said:

Check with counsel about adding the company as a named insured on your policy, and ask what liability limits would make them comfortable.  

The problem will come down to excess liability coverage. Most corporate and personal excess polices only provide coverage for a risk that is already insured. For example, if your company has a $1 million liability policy for cars, they may have a $10 million excess liability policy to back that up. Since they do not have an aviation policy, their excess coverage won't cover that. Even if you bought a $1 million policy and named them as additionally insured, it may not be enough to cover their risks, assuming they have a high asset base. It only takes one lawyer to figure out where the money is after an incident. 

[midlifeflyer]

12 hours ago, Schllc said:

As absurd an example as that is, I would think there could be an indemnification agreement, or a rider on the insurance that could satisfy the liability, ….
They can’t reimburse you for the expense of the plane anyway right?  
I’d buy a first class ticket and submit for reimbursement, then fly my plane!

 

How would any of that solve the liability issue for the company? It's less about you, the pilot, being injured (although some states have laws preventing waivers of workers comp rights in employment contracts). It's about damage to persons or property other than you. You and I can't sign a waiver that affects a stranger's right to sue.

To your other comment, yes, the company can reimburse you, so long as you don't carry other employees or transport company goods. That's 61.113 (b), the sub paragraph just before the familiar shared expense exception.

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, PMcClure said:

The problem will come down to excess liability coverage. Most corporate and personal excess polices only provide coverage for a risk that is already insured. For example, if your company has a $1 million liability policy for cars, they may have a $10 million excess liability policy to back that up. Since they do not have an aviation policy, their excess coverage won't cover that. Even if you bought a $1 million policy and named them as additionally insured, it may not be enough to cover their risks, assuming they have a high asset base. It only takes one lawyer to figure out where the money is after an incident. 

That's pretty much what it comes down to. The Commercial General Liability policies I've seen don't cover aviation risks and the typical company without its own business aircraft is unlikely to spring for one to protect itself from your mistake. Even excess policies contain aviation exclusions.

Your tiny policy is not too likely to satisfy them but it's worth asking.

Edited December 6, 2022 by midlifeflyer

[Parker_Woodruff]

Your company should look into a corporate non-owned aircraft insurance policy which would protect them from liability imposed by their employees flying personal aircraft on company travel.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Your company should look into a corporate non-owned aircraft insurance policy which would protect them from liability imposed by their employees flying personal aircraft on company travel.

You have my curiosity meter going. Let's assume something pretty minial - $2 Million smooth and covering light pistons only. What kind of premiums are we talking about?

[Parker_Woodruff]

8 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

You have my curiosity meter going. Let's assume something pretty minial - $2 Million smooth and covering light pistons only. What kind of premiums are we talking about?

It would be dependent on pilot experience, how many pilots, does your employer carry work comp, etc.  I'll send you a message.

[FlyingDude]

I wish it were possible with a simple waiver. I don’t need them to reimburse me either… Flying on a business day, not having to overnight at a brand name hotel with outdated infrastructure or rotting on 70mph highways with oversized left huggers compensates me enough…

If the weather is bad, I’ll drive like the rest of the flock.

[midlifeflyer]

20 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

It would be dependent on pilot experience, how many pilots, does your employer carry work comp, etc.  I'll send you a message.

I replied. Nothing specific in mind. Just curious of the risk/benefit/availability calculation since there are two potentially independent issues. One is workers comp; the other is third party liability. 

[N201MKTurbo]

It all depends on who is the decision maker. If they want you to fly, they will find a way, if they don’t want you to fly they will find a way.

I think we are so small a percentage of travel, that they just don’t want to find a way to make it happen.

A lot of corporations have rules for charter flying, you might fit in there.

[N201MKTurbo]

At my last job, the president had a B36TC. I thought he would rather I didn’t fly my plane, I’m not sure why, but he couldn’t craft a rule that would stop me from flying and let him fly. I flew about 5 times more than him while I was there.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

At my last job, the president had a B36TC. I thought he would rather I didn’t fly my plane, I’m not sure why, but he couldn’t craft a rule that would stop me from flying and let him fly. I flew about 5 times more than him while I was there.

At my last job, no one asked and no one checked. So I flew a few times (there were only a few times the trip justified it) and got reimbursed for the backup refundable commercial airfare.