What models/years are difficult to load to max gross within the envelope?

[Brian P]

First post here, and starting to look seriously at getting a Mooney as the initial primary aircraft for a new club in Tucson, AZ. I'm used to flying 172/182, which generally don't need to consider balance as much as weight. In the world of M20 aircraft, are there models or years that are difficult to load to max gross while staying within the envelope? What combination of loads causes you to be out of the envelope (whether stationary, or as fuel disappears in flight)?

 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Brian.

You are going to find Mooneys are incredibly well balanced and are a challenge to accidentally get them out of their envelope…

Of course, it is possible to do so…

So… this is why they invented apps like WnB….  

Get an app…

Load up some data…

Two heavy people up front….

and a family of four with heavy luggage…

Will range from the front to the back of the envelope….

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[Utah20Gflyer]

In my G model (mid body) it is very difficult to get it out of CG even close to gross.  Fuel burn has almost no impact on CG.  I have heard of other Mooney's that are more CG sensitive but couldn't tell you which ones.  Just know about mine.  

[carusoam]

Compared to other planes…

One big competitor is known to have the ship fall out the back side of the envelope… as the fuel gets used up in flight.

Good WnB apps… will calculate the Cg over the entire flight, hour by hour, until the fuel runs out completely…

They generate a nice graph to visualize how things will change….

 

Of course… know that a plane on the edge of the envelope doesn’t stop flying….

But, control gets worse and worse as the ship gets further away from the envelope….

T/O and landing are when things get dicey…. The lower speeds are where the envelope issues arise….

 

Same with weight limits….

It is wise to stay within the weight envelope….

Outside the weight envelope is somewhat test-pilot duty…. Permits are issued for this, based on a bunch of technical data…. Often input from the engineers at Mooney….

 

For goofy accidents… find the pics of people that didn’t come close to following the rules…. And were way outside the envelope…

There is one around here known as the five seat Mooney… where the less lucky friend got to sit in the baggage compartment….

The plane technically flew… until the ground rose up to smite them….

Be smart, don’t get smited…. 

Pp thoughts only, not a CFI…

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

15 hours ago, Brian P said:

First post here, and starting to look seriously at getting a Mooney as the initial primary aircraft for a new club in Tucson, AZ. I'm used to flying 172/182, which generally don't need to consider balance as much as weight. In the world of M20 aircraft, are there models or years that are difficult to load to max gross while staying within the envelope? What combination of loads causes you to be out of the envelope (whether stationary, or as fuel disappears in flight)?

 

They are relatively easy to keep in the cg envelope at all loads.  You may find it easy to be on the forward side of the envelope with 2 big front seaters, nothing behind, and the bigger engine/prop combos.  However, just put a box of oil in the luggage and you’re good.  Going out the back is tough. Especially since it’s hard to put really big people in the backseat.  
I have an F with ~1050 UL, 64 gallons of gas.  I have two 60 lb kids and my wife is ~135.  Anyone can sit anywhere, even with full 120lbs in the luggage and we’re not even close.  It even works with me and my wife in the back and the kids up front (although they can’t see over the dash and their airmanship is troubling so far).  I did have to reduce the luggage to 50lbs for that one - it’s probably not too safe to let 7 year old twins “co captain” anyway. 

[Boilermonkey]

Long bodies tend to have lower useful loads l, at least the M20M does.  That being said you can trade off range for people and still get to you destination fast.

[Joshua Blackh4t]

I have to watch the back in my E model,  BUT thats because I fly with just me and about 150kg of cargo. So tempting just to throw it all in the nice big cargo bay.

I really should take out the back seats, but I use them often.

I end up putting some of the heavy boxes in the passenger footwell and created its own weight and balance point for the app. Works well but makes it an act to get in and out.

Early in flying my E, if I was worried I was near the edge, I'd put it in a slow glide and see how it would handle an engine failure. Thats when balance will show up badly.

It was always fine, and anecdotally I'm being more pedantic than I need to be.

BUT at 40 degrees celsius on dirt runways in very high humidity, it helps to have everything else optimised.

[Brian P]

Thanks for all the datapoints. It's encouraging at least that it doesn't sound like there's a significant hidden trap here. Unfortunately getting ahold of real W&B data for a bunch of vintage aircraft can get difficult, especially since most have been retrofit in some manner or another, so getting actual owner input is valuable. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

For fun I created a loading to get my Mooney out of CG, both front and aft. Front out of CG Involves me and a 500 pound copilot and the Aft CG Involves just me in the front, 410 lbs of backseat passengers and a maxed out baggage area.   

Anyone ever take a 500 lb passenger?  If so I want pictures!

[kortopates]

Often a vintage Mooney can get out of CG with 2 big people up front and very light fuel - like 20 Gal. but not if you have a cg further back.

My 252/Encore has 1120+ useful; probably the highest in the 252/Encore fleet and it’s loaded except for TKS.


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[Niko182]

Screaming Eagles and the stock 252 upgraded to an Encore are probably going to be the hardest to load too gross. Both these models were stock models that got an upgraded gross weight. My empty weight is 2151 and my gross weight is 3368 so it tend to be pretty hard to be over gross. The only time ive been limited by gross weight was when I had my entire family (4 people plus bags. Total of 740 lbs) on board, and I could only take 80 gallons instead of the total 104 I can usually fit. Even with that load still took off fine out of centennial and climbed up to 16000ft to cross the rockies.

[ArtVandelay]

For fun I created a loading to get my Mooney out of CG, both front and aft. Front out of CG Involves me and a 500 pound copilot and the Aft CG Involves just me in the front, 410 lbs of backseat passengers and a maxed out baggage area.   
Anyone ever take a 500 lb passenger?  If so I want pictures!

FYI, you can take a screenshot by pressing home and power simultaneously on the iPad, you don’t need a camera to do that.

[A64Pilot]

My J you can’t load out of CG, not with any realistic load and if you stay within the 120 lb baggage compt limit.

But just as important is that fuel load changes CG almost not at all, where say on a Bonanza as their fuel is in the leading edge of the wing it makes a significant aft shift as fuel burns off. But I think the bladders are easily removed as the leading edge is easy to remove.

Almost always the fwd CG limit is determined either by stall speed or the nose gear strength, but not aircraft handling, so if you got out fwd just land a couple of kts faster and don’t bounce the nose hard, aft CG is usually determined by the stick force neutral point, meaning if you get out of aft CG it gets real sensitive in pitch, so aft is in my opinion the more important one to worry about, especially if IMC

But bottom line is in almost all Mooney’s without doing something stupid like 2 250 pax and luggage and a single 100 lb pilot up front you just can’t load out of CG.

Then it’s the 21st Century now and it’s so easy to get W&B programs, Foreflight has one by default, there is just no excuse for getting out of CG.

Gross weight within reason I don’t worry much about, I’ve watched drop tests, they are extreme to say the least, that why we just don’t ever hear about landing gear structural failure very often, but being heavy does affect stall speed and climb performance, only accidents I remember hearing about that were the result of being over weight come from the performance hit, not making the trees off the end of the runway etc.

[Mcstealth]

On 12/1/2022 at 4:21 PM, Utah20Gflyer said:

For fun I created a loading to get my Mooney out of CG, both front and aft. Front out of CG Involves me and a 500 pound copilot and the Aft CG Involves just me in the front, 410 lbs of backseat passengers and a maxed out baggage area.   

Anyone ever take a 500 lb passenger?  If so I want pictures!

@Marauder

This ones for you.

[jamesm]

here a source that has been around to answer model  question / comment see link below.

My 67'C  has gained weight over the years it's now  at approx 1643lbs empty weight and  about 45.8" arm and gross wt 2575lbs limit with 52 gallon tanks, 26 gallons per side for a total of 312lbs of fuel.

Someone had put the link below together  which ranges 1948  -2006 of the differences in the Mooney models

http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm

in short (sorry bad pun)  the short bodies are A,B,C,D,E

Mid sized bodies are the F,G,J,K

I am not sure where the dividing line is between the Mid size bodies and Long bodies.

I am guessing that the Ovation and Acclaims  would be in the Long body category.

 

hope this helps,

James '67C