GAMI Unleaded gets approval

[Pinecone]

11 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

The Ag guys get bulk Jet-A cheap, most have at least a 5,000 gl tank and buy a truckload at a time.

‘Pretty sure they get $2 a gl break over FBO prices or more.

Unless things have changed which I don’t think they have.

Cheapest Jet near me is $4.60

Average Fl Diesel is $4.93

Average Fl gas is $3.60, up .50c from a month ago.

But that’s with road and whatever other taxes there are.

Cheapest 100LL near me is also $4.60, even 100LL is cheaper than Diesel.

The Ag guys get Jet tax free just like Farm Diesel, but I don’t know how the taxes compare.

If your really curious this Congressional testimony by the NAAA president ref fuel may be interesting.

He states a tanker is 7,800 gls and an operator may keep 10,000 gls on hand.

https://smallbusiness.house.gov/uploadedfiles/richter_testimony.pdf

Again, this was in 1983.  So a LONG time ago.

No Jet A available nearby.  Local FBO had 100LL and was pumping MOGAS from the old 80/87 tank.

The operation was burning enough fuel in the turbines that they refueled the fuel truck they brought with them every few days.  The nearest airport with Jet A was 30+ miles away.  So they had the local home heating oil company deliver to the airport.

Looking around, locally farm use diesel is $3.799 per gallon.  Jet A is available at the airport now, but at $6.79.  They probably have not filled recently.  There is one turbine helicopter on the field and from April - Oct there is a tandem parachute operations flying a Caravan

 

[A64Pilot]

Jet-A used for agricultural purposes was five years ago cheaper than red dyed tax free Diesel because the Diesel is ULSD

I bet it still is. 

It didn’t use to be, back before ULSD #2 Diesel was significantly less than regular car gas, it’s one reason I used drive Diesel pick ups and cars, but not anymore.

Jet fuel in particular prices I don’t think people shop usually, it’s over $8 a gl in Orlando, and in the cheapest place within 50 miles to me it’s $2 a gl less if self serve, so what you pay for it at an FBO I don’t think reflects its actual price, but more how much profit does the FBO want to make, how else can you explain $4 difference in price.

G-650 holds over 7,000 gls of fuel, so they are probably buying it 5,000 at a time, maybe, so it cost them $20,000 extra to buy one tank of fuel in Orlando, yet they do.

Airlines in Sept last year paid $3.49 for fuel, I bet Ag pays about the same, Sept the year before they paid under $2 a gl it seems and in the pandemic when no one was flying it was $1 a gl

https://www.bts.gov/newsroom/us-airlines-september-2022-fuel-cost-gallon-06-august-2022-aviation-fuel-consumption-down

[Pinecone]

7 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Jet-A used for agricultural purposes was five years ago cheaper than red dyed tax free Diesel because the Diesel is ULSD

Again, this was FORTY years ago.

And it wasn't ULSD back then.

[Jerry 5TJ]

7 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Jet fuel in particular prices I don’t think people shop usually

Sure we do.  If anything the price of JetA is more flexible and negotiable than 100LL at an FBO.  There are numerous fuel plans and the difference between “list price” and the available price is significant.  As in several $ per gallon, even for us little guys buying just 100-120 gallons at a time. 

[zxr92]

On 1/25/2023 at 6:53 PM, carusoam said:

Needing to go up a jet size when using 100LL in your race bike…

Implies that there was a change of viscosity…(?)

I asked JP, and he responded…

No change to fuel injectors are required… in this case going from 100LL to GU100

Just when I was expecting to NEED a set of Gami-jectors… 

PP thoughts only…

Best regards,

-a-

Some guy told named Rob Muzzy told me to use pump gas in my stock engined bikes. Unless I'm using oxygenated gas. It was the last of the carb 600cc's and ran great 100% at our 4,500ft elevation track. I had to add some premium pump gas at lower elevations (75% race gas at Las Vegas and 50% at Pomona). I quit using the VP after the whole U4.1 debacle where it varnished in the tanks at the racetrack and ruined fuel pumps!

[hammdo]

I was reading the G100UL weighs ~ .3 to .5 lbs heavier. I wonder if that is true?

On the low end would mean ~15.6 lbs of Useful load lost…

-Don

[ArtVandelay]

I was reading the G100UL weighs ~ .3 to .5 lbs heavier. I wonder if that is true?
On the low end would mean ~15.6 lbs of Useful load lost…
-Don

So fuel without lead is heavier?

[N201MKTurbo]

3 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

So fuel without lead is heavier?

100LL has about 2 gm of TEL/gal so they are removing about 1/4 Lb of lead per tankful of fuel.

[Pinecone]

5 hours ago, hammdo said:

I was reading the G100UL weighs ~ .3 to .5 lbs heavier. I wonder if that is true?

On the low end would mean ~15.6 lbs of Useful load lost…

-Don

However the engine burns fuel by the pound, not by the gallon.  So you will have a slight range increase.  Or just don't fill it to the top for the same range.

[aviatoreb]

19 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

However the engine burns fuel by the pound, not by the gallon.  So you will have a slight range increase.  Or just don't fill it to the top for the same range.

I understand the principle of course but I’d that true in this case?  If so then the burn rate or should I say suffer rate is the airplane burns fuel by dollars per hour.  Maybe that remains constant or could even go down slightly based on your comment?

[N201MKTurbo]

The important number is the BTU/gal value. I believe 100LL is around 125000. What is the value for G100UL?

[N201MKTurbo]

I can't find a value, but they say the energy density is greater than 100LL. They hint that the energy density BTU/Lb is about the same as 100LL, so it is kind of a wash. 

While you will lose some useful load on a full tank, you will gain some range.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I can't find a value, but they say the energy density is greater than 100LL. They hint that the energy density BTU/Lb is about the same as 100LL, so it is kind of a wash. 

While you will lose some useful load on a full tank, you will gain some range.

From the ICA - 

General Aviation Modifications, Inc (gami.com)

GAMI REPORT 06-6460002, Rev. C, September 1, 2022

Instructions for Continued Airworthiness Page 4 of 6

"The G100UL fuel typically weighs approximately 6.2 to 6.3 pounds per gallon which makes it approximately 3.5 to 5 percent higher in weight per gallon than 100LL fuel (6.0 pounds per gallon). G100UL has approximately 1 - 2% higher energy content on a per volume basis. Therefore, fuel system setups based upon weight per time may continue to use the adjustment values as listed for 100LL fuel. Fuel system adjustments that are based upon EGT values rich or lean of peak remain the same even though the peak EGT when running on G100UL may be different than the peak EGT when running on other fuels. Fuel system adjustments performed on a bench using naptha or similar less flammable fluid should continue using those adjustment values without change."

[N201MKTurbo]

3 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

From the ICA - 

General Aviation Modifications, Inc (gami.com)

GAMI REPORT 06-6460002, Rev. C, September 1, 2022

Instructions for Continued Airworthiness Page 4 of 6

"The G100UL fuel typically weighs approximately 6.2 to 6.3 pounds per gallon which makes it approximately 3.5 to 5 percent higher in weight per gallon than 100LL fuel (6.0 pounds per gallon). G100UL has approximately 1 - 2% higher energy content on a per volume basis. Therefore, fuel system setups based upon weight per time may continue to use the adjustment values as listed for 100LL fuel. Fuel system adjustments that are based upon EGT values rich or lean of peak remain the same even though the peak EGT when running on G100UL may be different than the peak EGT when running on other fuels. Fuel system adjustments performed on a bench using naptha or similar less flammable fluid should continue using those adjustment values without change."

That is what I was referencing. It would be good to have actual numbers.

[A64Pilot]

On 1/30/2023 at 4:16 PM, Pinecone said:

Again, this was FORTY years ago.

And it wasn't ULSD back then.

I understand that, but was explaining why Diesel is no longer burned by Crop Dusters, it would burn OK I’m sure but why burn Diesel when Jet is cheaper?

We never re-certified the Thrush for ULSD and #2 Diesel just doesn’t exist so it’s a moot point. #1 Diesel was allowed too and I think it’s still available, it’s I think pretty much Kerosene, winter fuel and I’ve never burned it so I’m not sure, but think it’s even more expensive than ULSD?

It will even burn Bio Diesel fine too, we went down that Cert route too but quit, one of the biggest problems is that there is or was no standard for Bio, and there are many ways to get there from french fry grease to Algae and the product is very different, so you would have to Cert every possible Bio, which would be stupid to attempt, or Cert only one type which is where we were headed.

I think this is current price differences around the world for Diesel vs car gas, interesting to see such huge differences, makes you wonder why, I’m thinking ULSD is a reason

https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/articles/4/

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I can't find a value, but they say the energy density is greater than 100LL. They hint that the energy density BTU/Lb is about the same as 100LL, so it is kind of a wash. 

While you will lose some useful load on a full tank, you will gain some range.

Which is exactly what happened when the Army switched from JP-4 to JP-8, the AH-64 fuel quantity system measured capacitance, so it actually weighed the fuel, over 376 gls the JP-8 weighed about 100 lbs more from memory, but our fuel burn when measured in lbs per hour was identical, but our gallons per hour was less. I think we burned about 1,000 lbs per hour so 100 lbs gave us 6 min more endurance?

So if the Gami fuel is the same and it’s 3% denser, but lbs per hour is the same, but we buy fuel by the gallon, that means that the Gami fuel would be 3% cheaper, so there is a slight price break that’s not reflected in the price per gallon.

I know 3% isn’t much, but I’ll take anything I can get.

[Pinecone]

31 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I understand that, but was explaining why Diesel is no longer burned by Crop Dusters, it would burn OK I’m sure but why burn Diesel when Jet is cheaper?

As I pointed out, not everywhere.  Locally, I could get off road diesel fuel for less than Jet A at the local airport.

YMMV

[Will.iam]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

I understand that, but was explaining why Diesel is no longer burned by Crop Dusters, it would burn OK I’m sure but why burn Diesel when Jet is cheaper?

We never re-certified the Thrush for ULSD and #2 Diesel just doesn’t exist so it’s a moot point. #1 Diesel was allowed too and I think it’s still available, it’s I think pretty much Kerosene, winter fuel and I’ve never burned it so I’m not sure, but think it’s even more expensive than ULSD?

It will even burn Bio Diesel fine too, we went down that Cert route too but quit, one of the biggest problems is that there is or was no standard for Bio, and there are many ways to get there from french fry grease to Algae and the product is very different, so you would have to Cert every possible Bio, which would be stupid to attempt, or Cert only one type which is where we were headed.

I think this is current price differences around the world for Diesel vs car gas, interesting to see such huge differences, makes you wonder why, I’m thinking ULSD is a reason

https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/articles/4/

Wholy cow i knew taxes were a big influence on gas to diesel prices but what’s the deal with Saudi Arabia being over 210% more expensive for gas than diesel? Do they just not use gas or is diesel so cheap it’s almost free in comparison to gas price?

[GeeBee]

Diesel right now is waaaay cheaper than Jet A spot prices.

[hammdo]

9 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

So fuel without lead is heavier?

https://gami.com/g100ul/GAMI_Q_and_A.pdf

Yep, just found it:

 

[hammdo]

MAPA Safety Foundation will need to update the course info…

-Don

[amillet]

https://www.mooneysafety.com
 

updated info is here.

MAPA site not updated

[Sixstring2k]

Interesting video on this topic for those who interested. 
 

 

[Fly Boomer]

12 hours ago, Sixstring2k said:

Interesting video on this topic for those who interested. 

The bleep made me laugh out loud.  Like AvWeb or Paul Bertorelli would actually publish content with profanity.