M20J vs M20K

[William A]

My dad, grandpa, and 2 uncles worked for Mooney from 1970s to 1980s. I’m a new pilot just received my PPL and am bored with my 110 hours in a Cessna 172. I’d like to go ahead and look at getting endorsed in a Mooney and for my mission of 80-90% local flying in Fort Worth Tx I’m contemplating J vs K (non turbo 200hp vs turbo 210). Probably go to my hometown of Kerrville and see my grandparents 1-2 times a year, Lawton Oklahoma 2-3 a year, see my son starting college in Abilene 3-4 times a year and my biggest trip I’d  love to take is to Angel fire New Mexico once a year. My big question is would it be worth getting the K model for the turbo if you can fly into KAXX at 11,500ft? Would a regular non turbo J model make the climb back out to get me home? William

Edited July 9, 2022 by William A

[DonMuncy]

I have a K and I like the fact that I can (if necessary or preffered) go up high over a bunch of traffic and a bunch of weather. But a J will perform right with a K up to 6,000 to 8,000 feet, and will do anything you need in your mission. I personally, do not think the maintenance or complexity of a turbo over a non-turbo is very signifance, is a deal breaker.  If you are near the top of your budget, get a J. If not, a K is nice.

[M20F]

80-90% local flying in DFW, think you have answered your own question logically.  
 
If you want a K because you want a K, buy one. 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard WA!

Welcome to the slippery slope of the sliding wants vs. needs argument…

We have a few MSers parents that worked at the factory… and some factory people around here as well….

Even Mooney’s top dog stops by every now and again…

 

There is a huge gap between training to fly… and buying the fastest factory built airplane in the world…

Get ready to fill in the gap!   
 

Some people are really focussed on learning to fly… and getting to their next level… then the level after that…

Others have priorities like work and family and church and family and sports and families….  
 

It’s not unusual for somebody to want to train in a Long Body… or any Mooney…

Many people around here have purchased a Mooney right after getting their PPL… and a couple have trained in the Long body as well…

Right around 100hrs… is where people determine that renting doesn’t work for them… and a Mooney doesn’t cost much more than other better recognized names…

The 100 hr mark also gives the new pilot a full year to see all kinds of weather and learn about things that occur beyond the local area…

Find a Mooney fly-in… talk Mooneys with a lot of people… 

Imagine for a moment… Some Mooneys have better power to weight ratios than Corvettes….

Get Stoked!

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[Niko182]

Id say K mainly to easily get up high where the air is cool.

[William A]

3 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard WA!

Welcome to the slippery slope of the sliding wants vs. needs argument…

We have a few MSers parents that worked at the factory… and some factory people around here as well….

There is a huge gap between training to fly… and buying the fastest factory built airplane in the world…

Get ready to fill the gap!   
 

Some people are really focussed on learning to fly… and getting to their next level… then the level after that…

Others have priorities like work and family and church and family and sports and families….  
 

It’s not unusual for somebody to want to train in a Long Body… or any Mooney…

Many people around here have purchased a Mooney right after getting their PPL…

Right around 100hrs… is where people determine that renting doesn’t work for them… and a Mooney doesn’t cost more than other better recognized names…

The 100 hr mark also gives the new pilot a full year to see all kinds of weather and learn about things that occur beyond the local area…

 

Get Stoked!

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

I’m ready to get the plane I plan on keeping for years and learning to fly it. I’m going Mooney for sentimental value, performance, and efficiency. Tired of throwing $150-200/hr in rental fees and having maintenance issues with the rentals 30% of the time.

Will the J model get me out of KAXX especially during warmer summer months? Only 75 degrees there today! But density altitude says 10,500.

[MikeOH]

12 minutes ago, William A said:

Will the J model get me out of KAXX especially during warmer summer months? Only 75 degrees there today! But density altitude says 10,500.

Will that be at or near gross weight?  Or, are you okay with limiting fuel/passengers?

[William A]

Let’s say max gross max useful load. 

[Niko182]

Just now, William A said:

Let’s say max gross max useful load. 

Good luck with that. Youll climb but super super slowly. If you want to fly max gross at high density alt, look at 252s, bravos, rockets and acclaims. Ovations and eagles with the 310hp conversion would also do okay but not nearly as well as the 4 listed before.

[N201MKTurbo]

I’ve landed at Angel Fire twice. Both times were in my NA M20F. It was no problem.

[MikeOH]

29 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I’ve landed at Angel Fire twice. Both times were in my NA M20F. It was no problem.

Landing doesn't concern me.

Did you take off at gross on a 10,500 DA day?

[MikeOH]

49 minutes ago, William A said:

Let’s say max gross max useful load. 

Too sporty for me in my NA M20F.  Any downdrafts and your ROC will be wiped out.

[0TreeLemur]

1 hour ago, William A said:

I’m ready to get the plane I plan on keeping for years and learning to fly it. I’m going Mooney for sentimental value, performance, and efficiency. Tired of throwing $150-200/hr in rental fees and having maintenance issues with the rentals 30% of the time.

Will the J model get me out of KAXX especially during warmer summer months? Only 75 degrees there today! But density altitude says 10,500.

Renting is always cheaper than owning unless you fly a lot.   At 100 hours per year, I figure that our C costs us somewhere between $200 and $220 per hour to fly, which includes fuel, insurance, hangar rent, annual, and pro-rated overhaul costs.  Fuel is about 1/3 of that assuming 10 gph average and $6.50/gal.  And that's a "lowly" C.   Throw in the occasional 1 to 10 amu surprise (tank reseals are up to $12k I read),  and the strong desire most have to upgrade the panel, and it's a pretty serious expense.

Nobody owns an airplane to save money.   Most people own airplanes to save time.  Some people own an airplane just because they love owning an airplane.  I'm more-or-less in the latter category.   Although, now that I work for an employer who reimburses for travel by personal aircraft, I'm using it occasionally to save time.

Good luck!

[MikeOH]

^^^ THIS ^^^

All in, the care, feeding, and flying of my M20F runs $13K to $18K per year.  Number of hours doesn't make a huge difference as most of those numbers are fixed costs.

[N201MKTurbo]

56 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Too sporty for me in my NA M20F.  Any downdrafts and your ROC will be wiped out.

If it is beyond your comfort zone then you shouldn’t go there. At the time I was flying the Rockies every day. It can get sporty if the winds are blowing. You have to use your judgment for that.

[MikeOH]

3 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If it is beyond your comfort zone then you shouldn’t go there. At the time I was flying the Rockies every day. It can get sporty if the winds are blowing. You have to use your judgment for that.

@N201MKTurbo Agreed. I'm definitely not ace of the base!

Still, I'm curious what your take-off weight and DA were when you flew out of Angel Fire?

[Mac80]

You also need to think about minimum altitudes and rate of climb out. Several Texas pilots and their passengers have not had a second chance heading out or in to Angel Fire on Hot summer days due to stalls.

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

48 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

@N201MKTurbo Agreed. I'm definitely not ace of the base!

Still, I'm curious what your take-off weight and DA were when you flew out of Angel Fire?

Me and some fuel. The last time I went there was in the 90s. 
 

The valley is big enough that you can circle to gain altitude, so your climb performance isn’t that big of a deal. Going east or west, as soon as you cross the ridge, you are 3000 AGL. Just be aware of what the winds are going to do to you crossing the ridges. If it is a calm day, just climb in the valley until you can see over the ridge and then cross it.

[N201MKTurbo]

28 minutes ago, Mac80 said:

You also need to think about minimum altitudes and rate of climb out. Several Texas pilots and their passengers have not had a second chance heading out or in to Angel Fire on Hot summer days due to stalls.

 

 

If you take off and immediately turn on course, you may not be able to out climb the ridges. DON’T DO THAT!  Circle in the valley until you have enough altitude to cross the ridges. You can just fly patterns around the airport to gain altitude. It isn’t that busy, nobody will mind.

[1980Mooney]

4 hours ago, William A said:

I’m ready to get the plane I plan on keeping for years and learning to fly it. I’m going Mooney for sentimental value, performance, and efficiency. Tired of throwing $150-200/hr in rental fees and having maintenance issues with the rentals 30% of the time.

If "$150-200/hr in rental fees and having maintenance issues with the rentals 30% of the time" bothers you I hope you don't think owning a Mooney will reduce that cost. (and I assume $150-200/hr to rent a C-172 is "wet" including fuel).  Your hourly cost of owning a J or K will likely be double that.  Remember when it comes to airplane ownership some of the biggest lies by owners are related to the true cost of ownership.  Why? - because we like to fly and have a passion for it.  And it generally costs more than we plan or want to admit.

• As a "newbie" I bet your insurance on a Mooney (if you can get it) will be over $4,500/yr.
• You said you are in Ft. Worth and I see the smallest T-hangars at Meecham are $425/month and at Spinks $325/month.  So  you will be spending about $4,000 - 5,000/year just to park your plane.
• Your Annual with repairs will easily run $4,000/year - every now and then you will have the "Annual from Hell" that costs way more.  The typical A&P in Texas has shop rates of $100/hour or more (and rising).
• Don't forget the cost of Databases and Subscriptions - Foreflight, Garmin, Jeppessen, etc.  Depending on your avionics stack you could wind up spending another $1,000/year.
• So you could be spending $14,000/year in cash without even flying your Mooney one hour.  If you fly 60 hr/year then that amortizes to $233/hr.
• There are a lot of unexpected maintenance issues when owning and flying (sometimes seems like 30% of the time!) so get ready to write $1,000-2,000 checks every now and then.
• And if you can average 11 gal./per hour with 100LL Avgas around Ft. Worth $6.50-7.00 then that will cost $70-77/hr. ($4,200 - 4,600/yr. @ 60 hrs/yr)
• So if you fly 60 hr/year your total cost will be about $300/hour.
• But you have nothing there for wear and tear and replacement over time.
  • Engine overhaul $50,000 (and if you have a K with the 6 cylinder turbocharged Continental - although still 360 cu in. and only 210 HP it will cost you WAY MORE to overhaul than the Lycoming in the J)
  • Prop overhaul - $2,500 - Replacement $10,000
  • Avionics upgrades $5,000 - 15,000
  • Paint - $13,000
  • Fuel Tank Reseal - $10,000
  • Interior - $5,000
    • That adds up to over $100,000 so if you can nurse 20 years out of each item then the average annual cost of replacement is $5,000/year.  If you fly 60 hours per year that is another $83/hour to amortize.  That gets you up to $380+/hour.
    • And these costs come in big slugs. (some soon after you buy - hence the need for a good "pre-buy" inspection in case the previous owner had deferred a lot of needed repairs and had a lot of "pencil annuals".)

Don't get me wrong - I also did the same thing as you with a young family of 4.  I bought a J model Mooney when I had only 48 hours in a C-172 and 1 1/2 months before I got my Private.  I had 2 instructors and I didn't tell the first instructor/flight school that I was flying a Mooney at the same time with a different instructor.  And I did have insurance.  Of course that was "last century".   I still have the same Mooney although I added a 300 HP IO-550 to it.

I also used the Mooney to train and get my Instrument ticket - which is something you will definitely want to do if you are flying your family in and out of Angel Fire.

Edited July 10, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[aviatoreb]

8 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

... I bought a J model Mooney when I had on 48 hours in a C-172 and 1 1/2 months before I got my Private.  I had 2 instructors and I didn't tell the first instructor/flight school that I was flying a Mooney at the same time with a different instructor.  And I did have insurance.  Of course this was "last century".   I still have the same Mooney although I added a 300 HP IO-550 to it.

Whaaa?  You were cheating on your instructor?  With another instructor no less?  That is downright scandalous!!!  :-O

[1980Mooney]

@William A  Here is a good thread earlier in the year on real maintenance costs of Turbo vs. Non-turbo

 

[carusoam]

Wait a second….

1980 brings up the magic of buying the right plane for first time ownership… M20J.

Then upgrading its front end to the 300hp Missile as required…  just add the IO550, cowling + STC. 

Similarly, Adding a TC is great when you have the baseline Mooney experience already…

 

Going from trainer, direct to TC’d 300hp… get ready to study and gain experience… 

Your insurance guy will be happy to explain the logic.

Have you spoken with Parker yet?

 

First year of aviation insurance is a learning experience…

Get on it quickly… experience and training make insurance go down…

Getting old… insurance companies start avoiding you…. A horrible case of ageism… 

 

Find Parker early on… he is helpful.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[MikeOH]

@William A

Carusoam is referring to @Parker_Woodruff.

I've been purchasing insurance through him for the past three years and have been very happy with price and service!

[William A]

1 hour ago, Mac80 said:

You also need to think about minimum altitudes and rate of climb out. Several Texas pilots and their passengers have not had a second chance heading out or in to Angel Fire on Hot summer days due to stalls.

 

 

That’s exactly what I was looking for. What do you need to get out of there if you were at max gross? 200hp J model minimum or the 210hp turbocharged K model and up?