Wet-Wingologists FXE

[Jim Peace]

I just got a call from Edison at WW.

I am having both of my tanks redone.

He said I need two new fuel drains for 450 dollars per side.  I told him the fuel drains are not that old and dont leak.  He said that he is not talking about the fuel drains that we use to check for water.  That there are other fuel drains inside the tank.  Does anyone know what he may be talking about?  

I have a 1964 M20C # 2799.  Parts manual schematic is enclosed.

 

[RLCarter]

Ask them to send a photo

[affricate]

1 hour ago, Jim Peace said:

I just got a call from Edwin at WW.

I am having both of my tanks redone.

He said I need two new fuel drains for 450 dollars per side.  I told him the fuel drains are not that old and dont leak.  He said that he is not talking about the fuel drains that we use to check for water.  That there are other fuel drains inside the tank.  Does anyone know what he may be talking about?  

I have a 1964 M20C # 2799.  Parts manual schematic is enclosed.

 

Edwin or Edison?

[Jim Peace]

44 minutes ago, affricate said:

Edwin or Edison?

Edison...I edited it

[Kelpro999]

He may be referring to baffle drains but they are cleared during complete sealant removal. No other drains on a C model.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

I just got a call from Edison at WW.

I am having both of my tanks redone.

He said I need two new fuel drains for 450 dollars per side.  I told him the fuel drains are not that old and dont leak.  He said that he is not talking about the fuel drains that we use to check for water.  That there are other fuel drains inside the tank.  Does anyone know what he may be talking about?  

I have a 1964 M20C # 2799.  Parts manual schematic is enclosed.

 

Is he referring to S/B M20-188, replacement of riveted in fuel drains for screw in versions for newer models?

Clarence

[Jim Peace]

13 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Is he referring to S/B M20-188, replacement of riveted in fuel drains for screw in versions for newer models?

Clarence

he did mention that he would have to do some riveting, but it had nothing to do with the drain valves for checking for water.   pictures will be sent to me tomorrow.  

if it is that SB you mention can it cost 450 per side?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Jim Peace said:

he did mention that he would have to do some riveting, but it had nothing to do with the drain valves for checking for water.   pictures will be sent to me tomorrow.  

if it is that SB you mention can it cost 450 per side?

It’s possible, the kit isn’t available easily, so he may be having to source part individually.

Clarence

[FlyingDude]

Following...

 

[LANCECASPER]

Edison is a good guy. If he says you need it, you need it. He doesn't need to make work for himself, he has a long waiting list for tank reseals.

[Jim Peace]

20 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Edison is a good guy. If he says you need it, you need it. He doesn't need to make work for himself, he has a long waiting list for tank reseals.

I know. I am at almost 8 months to get in. I just want to know what other fuel drains there are other than the ones we can see. Maybe he did not describe them well. Find out tomorrow. 

[Greg Ellis]

Since I have a 63 C model I am interested in this.  Please keep us posted.

Thanks.

[0TreeLemur]

Betcha he's talking about finger strainers.   When he resealed the tanks on our C in '19 we needed one.   It was badly corroded, covered in old sealant that fortunately held it together because it was about to fall off.  Actual photo from then.   Alternatively, it might be the riveted fitting that holds the tank drain plug.   Ours was corroded as the photo shows.   He had an A&P on the field rivet in another.  

Edison's shop did good work in my estimation.  

 

[1980Mooney]

5 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

I know. I am at almost 8 months to get in. I just want to know what other fuel drains there are other than the ones we can see. Maybe he did not describe them well. Find out tomorrow. 

I think @M20Doc hit it on the head.  Read Mooney S/B M20-188 and it is all self explanatory.  The last thing you want to do is is wreck your $10,000 tank reseal because your 58 year old wing fuel tank drain ( also sometimes called "sump" or "dump") valves failed.  The original valves are riveted in and then sealed.  Mooney S/B M20-188 removes and patches the old drain hole and locates a new removable drain nearby.   It looks like the parts are a small part of the cost - most of it is labor.  Regardless $450/wing sounds like a bargain.  

If you leave to old riveted in drains in place and they fail after the reseal then you will have to open the wing up again and remove all the sealant around the old drain - disrupting the seal (and perhaps paint) on the wing fuel tank entry panels and potentially disrupting other sealant while cleaning the old sealant off to prepare for the patch.

https://mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SBM20-188A.pdf

Edited July 7, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[Guest]

The drain valves are readily available, the nut plates are harder to find, and complete kits almost impossible.

Clarence

[Jim Peace]

Okay Edwin sent me a picture of what he removed from my plane.  It is the drain that you use to check for water.  I do not know why he says it isn't ...just glad they are getting replaced.  The last owner did not do the SB when the tanks were redone over 12 years ago by Jim/Bob in a shady hangar.  So I am guessing these are original.

 

[Steve Dawson]

I just had my tanks resealed by Edison a couple months ago and he replaced the drains for the same money. It seems like a lot of money but after he finished with it I was glad he did it and feel safer that I won't have a leaky valve problem in the future. I'm not sure what the parts cost is but it's a fair amount of labour too.

You'll have to have your tanks filled before you leave so Edison can do a leak check. Banyon is the only fuel server on the field and they were $9.85/gal when I had mine finished. Phone Banyon up before your tanks are ready and ask them for a discount. I was able to get $1/gal discount ($90.00) which is enough for a round of drinks with anyone but pilots. 

[ArtVandelay]

I got a new drain, the spring is much stiffer than the older one, so much so I worry it will break my gats jar.

[Jim Peace]

I thought I read someplace on Mooneyspace that a owner modified the fuel drain as to drain more of the bottom of the tank than these are designed to.  It seems that there is still a chance to have water in the tank even if you sump it.  Hence the corrosion.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

I thought I read someplace on Mooneyspace that a owner modified the fuel drain as to drain more of the bottom of the tank than these are designed to.  It seems that there is still a chance to have water in the tank even if you sump it.  Hence the corrosion.

I believe that it was Jose Monroy who was suggesting the fix to dripping fuel drains was to install the wrong drains with the hole above the top of the nutplate.  This is an insane idea which would allow even more contamination in the tank.  In the picture I posted above the left valve is the correct one.  It’s holes align with the opening in nutplate.

Clarence

[1980Mooney]

35 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I believe that it was Jose Monroy who was suggesting the fix to dripping fuel drains was to install the wrong drains with the hole above the top of the nutplate.  This is an insane idea which would allow even more contamination in the tank.  In the picture I posted above the left valve is the correct one.  It’s holes align with the opening in nutplate.

Clarence

Since the nutplate will be exposed to water perhaps much of its life (especially if an unsumped tank sits for a long time), what is the proper material used in its construction?  Brass?  Stainless Steel?  The nutplate in @Jim Peace picture above looks like it may be ferrous with considerable corrosion.   

Edited July 7, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[Guest]

Just now, 1980Mooney said:

Since the nutplate will be exposed to water perhaps much of its life (especially if an unsumped tank sits for a long time), what is the proper material used in its construction?  Brass?  Stainless Steel?  The nutplate in the picture above looks like it may be ferrous with considerable corrosion.   

I believe that they are cadmium plated steel.  

The drain system from a Piper Cherokee is the simplest, an aluminum flange riveted to the outer surface of the tank skin, a 1/8-27 NPT tapped hole and a simple cheap valve screwed in.

Clarence 

[1980Mooney]

42 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I believe that it was Jose Monroy who was suggesting the fix to dripping fuel drains was to install the wrong drains with the hole above the top of the nutplate.  This is an insane idea which would allow even more contamination in the tank.  In the picture I posted above the left valve is the correct one.  It’s holes align with the opening in nutplate.

Clarence

I suspect that some don't realize the cut-out or the saddle  on the base of the nutplate is where the fuel/water drains out.  It is against the lower skin and at the lowest place in the tank.  There was a SB 20-230 in 1986 and an AD because of sloppy tank sealant application that plugged the lower holes.  Fuel/water would only exit when it built up high enough to exit through the valve at a point above the nutplate (like you reference regarding the Monroy idea above).  As a result about 1/2 inch of water was always in the tank of the offending planes.

 https://mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SBM20-230A.pdf

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/library/documents/2018/Jan/139912/Mooney M120J, Blocked Fuel Tank Drains, ATA 2810.pdf

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/9C93312CAD9E7AAB86256A4D00490B41?OpenDocument

[David Lloyd]

38 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

I suspect that some don't realize the cut-out or the saddle  on the base of the nutplate is where the fuel/water drains out.  It is against the lower skin and at the lowest place in the tank.  There was a SB 20-230 in 1986 and an AD because of sloppy tank sealant application that plugged the lower holes.  Fuel/water would only exit when it built up high enough to exit through the valve at a point above the nutplate (like you reference regarding the Monroy idea above).  As a result about 1/2 inch of water was always in the tank of the offending planes.

 https://mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SBM20-230A.pdf

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/library/documents/2018/Jan/139912/Mooney M120J, Blocked Fuel Tank Drains, ATA 2810.pdf

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/9C93312CAD9E7AAB86256A4D00490B41?OpenDocument

A customer that introduced me to Mooneys had his tanks resealed locally about 45 years ago.  A year or so later the engine in his E quit suddenly after departing Sarasota.  Just before ditching, the engine restarted and ran okay.  No water in the tanks, nothing found, no good ideas.  A few months later it happened again resulting in an engine out landing in Georgia.  There was water in the fuel line but none drained from the tank.  Again, no good ideas.  Once home he was determined to find the problem.  Removed the drain and emptied the tanks.  Each side had more than a gallon of water.  It was determined the tank sealant had plugged the cut-out in the nutplate keeping water from being drained at the low point as designed.  And he needed to replace the fuel cap o-rings.  This was before Al invented the internet, all we had was the MAPA Log to keep us informed.

[FlyingDude]

I'm wondering: is it an existing standard procedure to "thoroughly drain" the tanks through the sender mounting holes?  You first siphon the tanks, then remove the senders, and then suck out everthing and clean up any dirt and debris with a hose through the sender mount holes?  Are the sampler nutplates accessible/visible from the sender mounting holes for a clean-up and quick corrosion inspection?