mechanic’s mistake - how to handle

[dominikos]

here is my challenge, and I’m honestly looking for guidance on this.

when I had my panel work done, I had to ask for a favor from avionics shop to swap malfunctioning dual mag on M20J. They contacted A&P on the field and help to coordinate the swap. My A&P, was available for calls to guide and coordinate.

The field A&P did the swap, avionics shop finished the install and all seemed great. In annual and we found out that the following went wrong:

• mag was installed upside down
• one of the harness wires was caught under the mag and damaged - see pictures

On one side, I’m glad that in my 30+ hours of flying nothing happened. on the flip side, I ended up spending quite a lot of money

• paid for mag installation
• paid for extra work during annual
• had to order a new harness
• had to get some additional work done on EMS installation (hard to explain, but what worked with broken setup, does not work once it wasfixed)

What would you folks advise to do? Range is broad:

• ask for refund of what I paid for A&P work - less
• ask for refund for what I paid during annual + new harness + EMS installation tweaks - more
• send a note just to ask that he pays attention next time - nothing for me but hopefully helps somebody else

I’m grateful that I didn’t have engine issues and costs are semi contained. Cost of work performed - 0.6AMU. Dealing with consequences - 2.5 AMU.

I’m honestly looking for advice. At minimum I think I should let the guy know that he did a really crappy and dangerous job and he should pay attention next time.

looking for feedback

[icurnmedic]

I would like to say go for a refund and raise sand until you get it…

Reality is I probably would just move on. If you feel it would be constructive to drop a note, to make the mechanic aware, I would not hesitate. 
Some folks take criticism well, others, well you know….

Glad you are safely past this.

Thomas

[Shadrach]

Did you pay the A&P or the Avionics shop for the mag work? They should know either way if they arranged/referred the work.  If we lived in a perfect world, the person that completed the substandard work would pay to have it rectified. We don’t live in a perfect world… I would not expect to recoup much financially. Reaching out to the mechanic that did the work to explain the situation is worth a call. You’ll quickly get an idea of how things are going to go during that call.  Rather than demanding restitution, I would couch it as a “I thought you’d want to know” situation and ask him what he thinks would be a fair outcome under the circumstances.  Understand that there is a very good chance that he will claim that he installed everything correctly, had nothing to do with the poor installation and that it must have happened at a later date. On the other hand, he might offer to correct it, but given the quality of his initial work, I’d not be inclined to have his hands on my plane again.  In my experience, the chances of a refund after a bill has been paid are pretty slim without legal action
 

[GeeBee]

Just send a note, and see what happens next. That will tell you everything about who you are dealing with. 

 

[LANCECASPER]

I would chalk it up to “Continuing Education Expense”. Asking someone to do something on an airplane they’ve never worked on before is not a great idea. Now you know that and you’ll probably never do it again. You’ll have your A & P do it right after the avionics shop finishes.  Someone has to pay the tuition for that important lesson - in this case it’s you. 

Of the three scenarios you mention, number one or two isn’t going to happen and you’ll burn your bridges with the avionics shop, which you may need. Number three is just to make you feel better. I strongly subscribe to the “Laugh Sooner’ philosophy. Someday you’re going to laugh about this, why not Laugh Sooner. It was a big expense, you caught it before it endangered your life. It’s fixed now. You now know who not to use in the future. Also one more lesson, although we pay someone called an IA to inspect the work done, you are the ultimate inspector. It’s your airplane, your life. If possible before they button up the airplane, put eyes on the work done.

[Shadrach]

Incidentally, clamps are available in all shapes and sizes. Zip ties are suboptimal for use on an engine mount, electrical tape insulator notwithstanding.  One of the most inexpensive ways to contribute to good dispatch reliability is to ensure that all electrical leads are properly routed and secured. 

[A64Pilot]

I didn’t notice the zip tie until it was mentioned, but get it off soon, I’ve seen sand and a little oil and a zip tie cut deep into an engine mount. R&R the engine and mount, then have tube replaced is expensive.

Military zip ties are not allowed on wiring, they will break wires, we had to tie (lace) all wires.

‘In other words zip ties don’t really belong on an airplane, yes I know most have them.

[kortopates]

Doesn’t sound like the avionics shop has anything to do with. Unless i am misinterpreting, they were just doing you a favor to get a referral for an A&P to do the mag work while they had the plane.

With the A&P, it’s too late to do the right think in my opinion which would be call him back to correct his work, which should include replacing the one damaged lead on the harness - not a new harness. (leads can be replaced). In that circumstance, hopefully he would have been apologetic and eager to do it right for you.
Maybe you didn’t discover it till the airplane was no longer local to the A&P, but that’s not his fault but unfortunately is on you.
At this point i would still definitely suggest following up with him to show him the pict of the damaged wire and what your annual shop told you about installing the mags upside down. But I wouldn’t demand anything at this point, since you never gave him a chance to correct it.


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[kortopates]

I would chalk it up to “Continuing Education Expense”.
…
Also one more lesson, although we pay someone called an IA to inspect the work done, you are the ultimate inspector. It’s your airplane, your life. If possible before they button up the airplane, put eyes on the work done.

Couldn’t agree more. And even legally, the owner/operator is entirely responsible for determining the airworthiness of the aircraft before every flight - not your mechanic. (91.403)


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[Wildhorsetrail]

I think I'd at the least inform the mechanic what was done wrong and how much you paid to have it rectified. I wouldn't expect money back, but he ought to know what it cost you.

[WaynePierce]

I'm in the just send a note camp. BUT BE SURE TO INCLUDE THESE PICTURES with it. See where it goes from there. Maybe at least a partial refund but you never know.

[Guest]

I’d be letting the the avionics shop know, so they don’t refer more work to him.  I’d be letting the A&P know about his crappy work and asking him to pay up.

Clarence

[1980Mooney]

I agree with @Clarence.  I had a similar experience last year.  I had to use a new A&P last year for Annual because my longtime A&P had a mechanic shortage and was prioritizing Cirrus customers and letting other customers go.  The new A&P declared my plane unairworthy due to a fuel tank leak on one wing.  The new A&P brought in a 3rd party, a supposedly reputable aviation service firm based at Hobby Airport, to find and seal my tank leak. This firm was trying to seal the leak from the outside rather than the inside.  They tried twice and failed twice.  Incredibly they admitted to me that they did not like to try to seal tank leaks (so why were they hired?!). The A&P billed me for the time and materials of this incompetent service company.  I protested the bill with the A&P declaring I should pay nothing.  We negotiated and the A&P ate most, but not all, of the fuel tank invoice.

Make an unbiased neutral case to the avionics shop and A&P.  Be factual.  Try to come to a fair solution but if you don't get everything you want DONT GET UPSET. Get as much as you can, and then move forward.  Last time I looked the number of A&P shops and qualified GA mechanics seems to be declining.  I don't see any new ones entering the business.  Don't destroy your relationships - you never know when you will be in a bind again at that same airport and will need help.

Edited June 30, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[MikeOH]

5 hours ago, kortopates said:

 

Couldn’t agree more. And even legally, the owner/operator is entirely responsible for determining the airworthiness of the aircraft before every flight - not your mechanic. (91.403)


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That FAR has always bothered me greatly.  Perhaps you have a logical explanation to the following legal conundrum:

The FARs say that without proper training and certification (i.e. an A&P) I, as the owner, with some small exceptions, am NOT allowed to work on my aircraft.  To me, this is very logical as I don't have the skills, experience, and most of all knowledge to safely perform the work.

Yet, per 92.403, I am required to take on FULL responsibility for determining airworthiness.  How am I expected to have the knowledge possessed by an A&P in order to determine that airworthiness?  Sure, I understand you can't have a mechanic inspect before every flight, but in the instant case how is the average pilot to recognize the mag is installed incorrectly? But, he would be responsible flying the aircraft in an unairworthy condition!

[jaylw314]

14 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

That FAR has always bothered me greatly.  Perhaps you have a logical explanation to the following legal conundrum:

The FARs say that without proper training and certification (i.e. an A&P) I, as the owner, with some small exceptions, am NOT allowed to work on my aircraft.  To me, this is very logical as I don't have the skills, experience, and most of all knowledge to safely perform the work.

Yet, per 92.403, I am required to take on FULL responsibility for determining airworthiness.  How am I expected to have the knowledge possessed by an A&P in order to determine that airworthiness?  Sure, I understand you can't have a mechanic inspect before every flight, but in the instant case how is the average pilot to recognize the mag is installed incorrectly? But, he would be responsible flying the aircraft in an unairworthy condition!

You misquote 92.403.  The operator is PRIMARILY responsible for maintenance and determining airworthiness.  In regulatory terms, I think that's a big, big difference

Edited July 1, 2022 by jaylw314

[Aerodon]

So I had an excavator operator hit a gas line 5 minutes after I told him exactly where it was.  There was a sorry, but nothing more than that.  Cost me $3k, and I was the client not the contractor.  Think of how many flat screen TV's that is.

 

Aerodon

 

 

 

[MikeOH]

5 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

You misquote 92.403.  The operator is PRIMARILY responsible for maintenance and determining airworthiness.  In regulatory terms, I think that's a big, big difference

@jaylw314

Thank you.

That's what I get for not reading the reg myself!  Paul's 'quote' that "the owner is ENTIRELY responsible" I've heard before, and have blindly believed it until you pointed out the actual wording.

[MikeOH]

1 minute ago, Aerodon said:

So I had an excavator operator hit a gas line 5 minutes after I told him exactly where it was.  There was a sorry, but nothing more than that.  Cost me $3k, and I was the client not the contractor.  Think of how many flat screen TV's that is.

 

Aerodon

 

 

 

Somehow, demonstrating that it's not just aviation where people no longer take responsibility for their mistakes doesn't make me feel better.

[Aerodon]

1 minute ago, MikeOH said:

Somehow, demonstrating that it's not just aviation where people no longer take responsibility for their mistakes doesn't make me feel better.

I agree, thats why I pick my subcontractors more on ability to do the work properly than the price. 

[jaylw314]

19 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

@jaylw314

Thank you.

That's what I get for not reading the reg myself!  Paul's 'quote' that "the owner is ENTIRELY responsible" I've heard before, and have blindly believed it until you pointed out the actual wording.

@kortopates isn't wrong in the sense that for the preflight, there's no mechanic there, so you're the only one responsible for inspecting the plane THAT DAY.  Not a lawyer, but I suspect the mechanic isn't off the hook if there's an accident unless it was a defect reasonably detectable on the preflight inspection recommended in the POH.

Edited July 1, 2022 by jaylw314

[MikeOH]

31 minutes ago, Aerodon said:

I agree, thats why I pick my subcontractors more on ability to do the work properly than the price. 

And, yet, YOU are out the $3K for someone else's mistake

[Guest]

Perhaps the OP should run down to the local FSDO and being a law abiding pilot turn himself in.  Would the inspector violate him and not go after the A&P who actually did the work?

Clarence

[MikeOH]

12 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Perhaps the OP should run down to the local FSDO and being a law abiding pilot turn himself in.  Would the inspector violate him and not go after the A&P who actually did the work?

Clarence

Sadly, I think that's exactly how it would go down.  They'd think he was trying to get even with his mechanic and waste their time (no way the mechanic would admit that was his work; 'must've happened after I worked on the plane').  Meanwhile, they have the pilot confessing to a violation in their presence. Easy kill.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Sadly, I think that's exactly how it would go down.  They'd think he was trying to get even with his mechanic and waste their time (no way the mechanic would admit that was his work; 'must've happened after I worked on the plane').  Meanwhile, they have the pilot confessing to a violation in their presence. Easy kill.

In another recent thread where I posted a few pictures of some poor work done by an MSC, I was told that I should report them to the FAA, and if I didn’t, I was part of the problem.  

I’m certainly no expert in the FARs, but if deniability is the escape clause for maintainers, as in “someone else must have worked on it after me” your FAA and system are truly screwed up.  

Clarence

 

 

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

….your FAA and system are truly screwed up.  

Clarence

 

 

That’s a distinct possibility