My experience with a broker and this plane

[thundermustard]

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/201673285/1991-mooney-m20j-201-piston-single-aircraft

I have learned that any plane on Controller that doesn't have an offer on it when you inquire is either overpriced or has issues, or both.

I was interested in this plane and made some inquires in Feb. He said he would get back to me with an estimate on the cost to get it an N number and delivered to the US.

He didn't get back to me. A few weeks later I called, after seeing it still listed, and said you never got back to me. He guessed $10-15K. I would need to add ADS-B as well, so say $20K.

He said a previous buyer offered $100K and it was accepted. Eventually the buyer bowed out saying he couldn't get over the 10K plus total hours on the engine. It was a Korean Airlines trainer.

I decided I would offer $95K (I was petrified the hours would leave me with a plane I couldn't sell down the road) and my response went unanswered, not denied, not countered, not accepted. I assumed that meant they were offended and wouldn't even counter.

Then like two weeks later the broker emails me, out of the blue, and says are you still interested. I can make this work.

I said  I want their best offer, I will decide based on that.

Once again crickets. Not a, that's not how it works, give me an offer, etc.

And it is still listed. Which brings me back to what is going on?  
Sure it could be under contract and still listed on Controller, but since I have moved on from it, I thought I would gather feedback to help me on the next plane I consider.

[Fly Boomer]

In my limited experience, the current market requires the buyer to take the airplane away from the seller or broker -- sellers don't sell and brokers don't broker.

[thundermustard]

1 minute ago, Fly Boomer said:

In my limited experience, the current market requires the buyer to take the airplane away from the seller or broker -- sellers don't sell and brokers don't broker.

??

I don't know what that means. 
I have made an offer on another plane, had a counter that I didn't accept, and then been told we respectfully decline your last offer.
Brokers want to make a commission. I just assumed they would try very hard to get the buyer and seller to an agreed upon price.
I don't understand silence, followed by cold call, followed by silence.

[LANCECASPER]

10 minutes ago, thundermustard said:

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/201673285/1991-mooney-m20j-201-piston-single-aircraft

I have learned that any plane on Controller that doesn't have an offer on it when you inquire is either overpriced or has issues, or both.

I was interested in this plane and made some inquires in Feb. He said he would get back to me with an estimate on the cost to get it an N number and delivered to the US.

He didn't get back to me. A few weeks later I called, after seeing it still listed, and said you never got back to me. He guessed $10-15K. I would need to add ADS-B as well, so say $20K.

He said a previous buyer offered $100K and it was accepted. Eventually the buyer bowed out saying he couldn't get over the 10K plus total hours on the engine. It was a Korean Airlines trainer.

I decided I would offer $95K (I was petrified the hours would leave me with a plane I couldn't sell down the road) and my response went unanswered, not denied, not countered, not accepted. I assumed that meant they were offended and wouldn't even counter.

Then like two weeks later the broker emails me, out of the blue, and says are you still interested. I can make this work.

I said  I want their best offer, I will decide based on that.

Once again crickets. Not a, that's not how it works, give me an offer, etc.

And it is still listed. Which brings me back to what is going on?  
Sure it could be under contract and still listed on Controller, but since I have moved on from it, I thought I would gather feedback to help me on the next plane I consider.

Put an offer in writing and send him a photo of a check for a deposit and let him know where you would like the pre-buy done.

[thundermustard]

No, if it is still for sale then my instinct to be worried seems sound.

[thundermustard]

BTW: The broker story was just part of it.

What do you guys think of a plane with 10K hours on the frame?

 

[philip_g]

Sure glad it's got that standby altimeter. Super useful. I wouldn't have anything to do with that plane.

Edited April 2, 2022 by philip_g

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, thundermustard said:

BTW: The broker story was just part of it.

What do you guys think of a plane with 10K hours on the frame?

 

Have you looked at ALL the Airframe Logs?  The logs attached to Controller basically show what has happened since it was imported into Canada and made airworthy (reassembled) in Dec. 2019.  As a trainer with 10,000 hours I would bet that it has about 50,000 landings (and gear retraction/extensions).  It will have endured a lot of "wear and tear".  The question is how well has it been maintained and been repaired?  

I would not worry about the stress of 10,000 hours and untold number of landings on the wings or structure.  I would worry about the wear on all the linkages and bearings, any hidden damage, cracked welds or corrosion on control rods, corrosion in general.  

• How many times has it been geared up and repaired?
• How many times has the prop been bent from porpoised landings?
• Has anything been bent and repaired?
• Has the entire landing gear system been overhauled? Especially the actuator assembly (they are expensive and hard to find)
• Was it hangared and protected from humidity, salt air, corrosion?

I assume you saw that the wings and basically all control linkages were disassembled (for shipping from Korea I presume) and then reassembled in Canada.  Since reassembly it has flown 38 hours in just over 2 years.  Check with @M20Doc to see who did the reassembly, re-rigging, etc. in Canada - they may be very good and it may fly great.

I noticed that it was imported August 30, 2019 by Fairways Aviation Ltd in BC.  (no relationship to Fairways Aviation Group in Wisconsin)

https://www.regosearch.com/aircraft/ca/GLNI

It appears that the Mooney was their sole investment

https://www.facebook.com/groups/3229352880475318

The logs indicate that they got it put back together in Dec 2, 2019 and then immediately put it up for sale (notice Dec 17, 2019 date)

https://uppervalleyaviation.com/bepro_listings/1991-mooney-m20j/

Regarding import to the US it has been discussed here
 

https://www.fnlpilots.org/blog/2021/02/imported-from-canada/

It is possible that between the Korean mechanics and the Canadian re-assembler that they have caught any problem, replaced any out of spec bearings, control rods, prevented/treated/repaired any corrosion, overhauled everything. (lets face it - they had a almost completely apart)  It is possible that the plane has been worked on with great care and is in fine shape.  You may be able to bargain hard and get a fine plane at a great price. 

But this will work best if you are planning to keep it for a long time.  If you find that you have to sell it anytime soon, you will likely have the same hard time selling it.

Edited April 2, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, thundermustard said:

BTW: The broker story was just part of it.

What do you guys think of a plane with 10K hours on the frame?

If it's the price attracting you to this particular airplane, I'd go along with others here, and say "run, don't walk" away.  I don't know what your budget is, but there are many other good "J" options here with better MX pedigrees and lower-time airframes - albeit, for higher prices.  Anything you choose to buy will have its gremlins and things to work out - it won't be perfect - but this one is something I would leave be.  I've renovated only four airplanes in my life (two of them Ovations), and no matter how good they appear, there's always a list of stuff to go after to make it great.

I'll suggest that If you're at the top end of your budget around 100-110k, I would look for a less-expensive core in which to make an investment.  Maybe an "E" or an "F" model.  Not sure how hard-set on a "J" you might be, but just to set expectations, there are better options where you could spend within your budget and make it your own.  For starters, I'd personally look for something that has been flown about 100 hours per year on average...not something that was flown a lot, then sat, then flown, etc.  Focus on the airworthy things first, the engine health, and then as you have the funds to upgrade, other upgrades will fall into line.  It's a marathon, not a sprint.

Just a few general thoughts.  Let us know how you make out.

Steve

[thundermustard]

Wow. I need to hire you to find me a plane. 

Nice insight. 

 

[thundermustard]

1 minute ago, StevenL757 said:

If it's the price attracting you to this particular airplane, I'd go along with others here, and say "run, don't walk" away.  I don't know what your budget is, but there are many other good "J" options here with better MX pedigrees and lower-time airframes - albeit, for higher prices.  Anything you choose to buy will have its gremlins and things to work out - it won't be perfect - but this one is something I would leave be.  I've renovated only four airplanes in my life (two of them Ovations), and no matter how good they appear, there's always a list of stuff to go after to make it great.

I'll suggest that If you're at the top end of your budget around 100-110k, I would look for a less-expensive core in which to make an investment.  Maybe an "E" or an "F" model.  Not sure how hard-set on a "J" you might be, but just to set expectations, there are better options where you could spend within your budget and make it your own.  For starters, I'd personally look for something that has been flown about 100 hours per year on average...not something that was flown a lot, then sat, then flown, etc.  Focus on the airworthy things first, the engine health, and then as you have the funds to upgrade, other upgrades will fall into line.  It's a marathon, not a sprint.

Just a few general thoughts.  Let us know how you make out.

Steve

My budget is double this. It just looked like a good deal. 

I realize there is no such thing right now. 

 

[StevenL757]

5 minutes ago, thundermustard said:

My budget is double this. It just looked like a good deal. 

I realize there is no such thing right now. 

Totally understand...it is indeed tough right now.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, thundermustard said:

Wow. I need to hire you to find me a plane. 

Nice insight. 

 

Ask for an electronic copy of ALL the logs - Airframe, Engine, Prop.  

[GeeBee]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Put an offer in writing and send him a photo of a check for a deposit and let him know where you would like the pre-buy done.

Bad idea. A photo of the check contains routing and account number. An unscrupulous individual could empty your account very quickly especially the age of Zelle. Even worse is internationally.

Paper checks are the worst way to do business.

Place verifiable funds on account with an aircraft title company and work your transaction through them. They are cheap enough there is no reason not to use them, plus you get clear titles. When you have a deal, all the seller has to do is verify the deposit with the title company. That way, he knows the funds are real and not a rubber check as well.

 

[carusoam]

Brining a plane across borders adds to the challenges…

it would have to be a special plane to make it worthwhile… 

The OP has also listed a few other negative bits that nobody would find beneficial…

 

There are plenty of Canadian buyers that may find this plane interesting… 

it takes a lot of effort/cost to reliably buy something a long distance away…

 

Expect that this plane may be better for somebody else to own…  and it’s broker already knows/feels that too…

 

Other than that… the high time is mostly meaningless when it’s care is top notch…

If the Logs aren’t all readable… getting them translated to review is just another challenge…

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Guest]

I don’t know anything about the plane, but the second altimeter and the G meter on the hat shelf tells me that they were probably going aerobatics while flying in instrument conditions.

How do I know this you ask?  It’s not because I can read the Korean log books, but because in some countries a second altimeter is/was required for instrument flight, and a G meter only makes sense for aerobatics.

Clarence

[Kage777b]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

I don’t know anything about the plane, but the second altimeter and the G meter on the hat shelf tells me that they were probably going aerobatics while flying in instrument conditions.

How do I know this you ask?  It’s not because I can read the Korean log books, but because in some countries a second altimeter is/was required for instrument flight, and a G meter only makes sense for aerobatics.

Clarence

Being somewhat familiar with Korean flight training, I’d venture to say there was no intentional aerobatics but the G meter was likely used to monitor hard landings or over stressing and every airline trainer I’ve seen has a Stby. altimeter. Just like the real deal. It’s in a normal AL cockpit flow...JS

Edited April 2, 2022 by Kage777b
Added info

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Kage777b said:

Being somewhat familiar with Korean flight training, I’d venture to say there was no intentional aerobatics but the G meter was likely used to monitor hard landings or over stressing and every airline trainer I’ve seen has a Stby. altimeter. Just like the real deal. It’s in a normal AL cockpit flow...JS

I’m guessing that you missed the humour in my post.

Clarence

[Kage777b]

Sorry, my bad...just getting ready to brief my crew and my mind’s in a different mode.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Kage777b

[LANCECASPER]

On 4/2/2022 at 3:50 PM, GeeBee said:

Bad idea. A photo of the check contains routing and account number. An unscrupulous individual could empty your account very quickly especially the age of Zelle. Even worse is internationally.

Paper checks are the worst way to do business.

Place verifiable funds on account with an aircraft title company and work your transaction through them. They are cheap enough there is no reason not to use them, plus you get clear titles. When you have a deal, all the seller has to do is verify the deposit with the title company. That way, he knows the funds are real and not a rubber check as well.

 

Of course, blur or redact the routing number and account number, that goes without saying. But my point was to take some decisive action and show them you are are serious buyer by putting something in writing. There are a lot of tire kickers out there that frustrate sellers. Show them you aren't one of them.

Regarding the airplane that I bought in November, the local broker had convinced the Seller to take it off the market in November and December and start over again in January. Who knows why? It actually worked in my favor though. Since the ad was down everyone else who had been interested assumed it was sold. A quick flightaware check showed that it hadn't moved. Long story short I flew there and showed up at 8 am on a Friday to take a look at the airplane and then was told that the broker couldn't reach the owner until Monday to present my offer. I went into the break room googled the owner, texted him, had him on the phone in a couple minutes, worked out the details and went back to the broker, handed him my phone. I had already combed through the logs before making the trip so I carefully looked over what I felt I needed to on the airplane that day, did a wire transfer later in the day and flew it back the next morning. No one else did that. My point is that you just have to pull the trigger and do it if that's the one you decide on.

[carusoam]

Signs of a serious buyer above….  ^^^^

In case you are not sure how serious you are…

-a-

[jetdriven]

On 4/2/2022 at 2:47 PM, 1980Mooney said:

Have you looked at ALL the Airframe Logs?  The logs attached to Controller basically show what has happened since it was imported into Canada and made airworthy (reassembled) in Dec. 2019.  As a trainer with 10,000 hours I would bet that it has about 50,000 landings (and gear retraction/extensions).  It will have endured a lot of "wear and tear".  The question is how well has it been maintained and been repaired?  

I would not worry about the stress of 10,000 hours and untold number of landings on the wings or structure.  I would worry about the wear on all the linkages and bearings, any hidden damage, cracked welds or corrosion on control rods, corrosion in general.  

• How many times has it been geared up and repaired?
• How many times has the prop been bent from porpoised landings?
• Has anything been bent and repaired?
• Has the entire landing gear system been overhauled? Especially the actuator assembly (they are expensive and hard to find)
• Was it hangared and protected from humidity, salt air, corrosion?

I assume you saw that the wings and basically all control linkages were disassembled (for shipping from Korea I presume) and then reassembled in Canada.  Since reassembly it has flown 38 hours in just over 2 years.  Check with @M20Doc to see who did the reassembly, re-rigging, etc. in Canada - they may be very good and it may fly great.

I noticed that it was imported August 30, 2019 by Fairways Aviation Ltd in BC.  (no relationship to Fairways Aviation Group in Wisconsin)

https://www.regosearch.com/aircraft/ca/GLNI

It appears that the Mooney was their sole investment

https://www.facebook.com/groups/3229352880475318

The logs indicate that they got it put back together in Dec 2, 2019 and then immediately put it up for sale (notice Dec 17, 2019 date)

https://uppervalleyaviation.com/bepro_listings/1991-mooney-m20j/

Regarding import to the US it has been discussed here
 

https://www.fnlpilots.org/blog/2021/02/imported-from-canada/

It is possible that between the Korean mechanics and the Canadian re-assembler that they have caught any problem, replaced any out of spec bearings, control rods, prevented/treated/repaired any corrosion, overhauled everything. (lets face it - they had a almost completely apart)  It is possible that the plane has been worked on with great care and is in fine shape.  You may be able to bargain hard and get a fine plane at a great price. 

But this will work best if you are planning to keep it for a long time.  If you find that you have to sell it anytime soon, you will likely have the same hard time selling it.

There is no way a 10k hour airframe accumulated 50k landings in its lifetime.  Maybe 15k. But still. This is the least of a buyers worries.  That said, check for worn out stuff all the Same. 

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

There is no way a 10k hour airframe accumulated 50k landings in its lifetime.  Maybe 15k. But still. This is the least of a buyers worries.  That said, check for worn out stuff all the Same. 

I think it depends upon the type of training for which it was used.  I looked back at my original logs.  In my first 49.5 hours in a C172 I logged 195 landings.  Extrapolated over 10,000 hours then that would be about 39,000 landings.  I got my PPL and my next 26 hours was training in my Mooney ( High Performance/Complex) in which I logged 75 landings in the next 26 hours.  Extrapolated over 10,000 hours that would be about 29,000 landings.   I looked back at my Instrument training and over 59.2 hours of training I had 90 approaches or landings in 59.2 hours.  The landing gear was cycled and extended at least that many times, perhaps more.  Extrapolating that out over 10,000 hours would be about 15,000 gear cycles/landings.

So admittedly my estimate is high and I bet yours is a bit low.  

Another way to think about it is that it accumulated 10,000 hours over 28 years (1991 - 2019) which is 357 hours/year. 375 is high but not crazy high when you consider some here on MS fly over 100 hours per year.   It probably never sat more than a week between flights which is a good thing.  But as you say everything wears when flown that much - it comes down to how well it was maintained.

Edited April 5, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[Jetman]

On 4/2/2022 at 2:54 PM, StevenL757 said:

If it's the price attracting you to this particular airplane, I'd go along with others here, and say "run, don't walk" away.  I don't know what your budget is, but there are many other good "J" options here with better MX pedigrees and lower-time airframes - albeit, for higher prices.  Anything you choose to buy will have its gremlins and things to work out - it won't be perfect - but this one is something I would leave be.  I've renovated only four airplanes in my life (two of them Ovations), and no matter how good they appear, there's always a list of stuff to go after to make it great.

I'll suggest that If you're at the top end of your budget around 100-110k, I would look for a less-expensive core in which to make an investment.  Maybe an "E" or an "F" model.  Not sure how hard-set on a "J" you might be, but just to set expectations, there are better options where you could spend within your budget and make it your own.  For starters, I'd personally look for something that has been flown about 100 hours per year on average...not something that was flown a lot, then sat, then flown, etc.  Focus on the airworthy things first, the engine health, and then as you have the funds to upgrade, other upgrades will fall into line.  It's a marathon, not a sprint.

Just a few general thoughts.  Let us know how you make out.

Steve

I just bought into a 99 Ovation with 1450 hours.  We are overhauling engine now, added an Aspen1000 with Terrain. What next steps would you plan of going forward?  Thanks!

[Jetman]

Just now, Jetman said:

I just bought into a 99 Ovation with 1450 hours.  We are overhauling engine now, added an Aspen1000 with Terrain. What next steps would you plan on going forward?  Thanks!