Oxygen Tanks or Oxygen Concentrator?

[S.C.]

I wanted to open this up to the quorum and see what the consensus is on tanks vs concentrators.  

I don't fly in the mountains regularly, but like most of you, I have read that even flying below the required altitudes, many are now recommending supplemental oxygen.  I've not experienced low O2 sats (I have an oximeter and do check it on long trips) but I'm intrigued by the possibility that by adding supplemental oxygen could be beneficial.  Normally I cruise between 7-10K, mainly during the day (I'm an insufferable morning person) and when I do fly into the evening or night, I do have Boost Oxygen which I use periodically.   

So here's the question, which do you use and why?  Third option... none, you just don't need it.  As always, I do appreciate all responses.

[Rick Junkin]

This has come up a number of times here. Take a look through these posts/threads and you'll get a good idea of what's what.

https://mooneyspace.com/search/?q=concentrator&quick=1

Cheers,
Rick

[A64Pilot]

At those altitudes a concentrator is fine, I’d say probably better than bottles as it doesn’t need refilling, but at high altitudes is where they aren’t very effective.

If you fly a several hour trip at 10K or so, you’ll most likely be less tired and less likely to have a headache with supplemental O2, and especially at night your vision will be much better

[S.C.]

Junkman and A64Pilot - thank you both   I appreciate your responses.  
 

@Junkman- really appreciate the link, answered my question and leads me to believe for my flying the concentrator is the way to go.

 

[A64Pilot]

5 minutes ago, S.C. said:

Junkman and A64Pilot - thank you both   I appreciate your responses.  
 

@Junkman- really appreciate the link, answered my question and leads me to believe for my flying the concentrator is the way to go.

 

After you fly with it for awhile, let us know if you think it’s worth it, or it’s just an annoyance 

[S.C.]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

After you fly with it for awhile, let us know if you think it’s worth it, or it’s just an annoyance 

I will, it will be an interesting experiment. 

[Hector]

Had a friend who is also a pilot that had a bad case of COVID to the point we weren’t sure he was going to make it. Thankfully he did, but needed supplemental oxygen for over a month after he was released from the hospital. Instead of a bottle, he purchased a concentrator from inogen. After he was able to resume flying he started using the concentrator when between 6-10k (his piper will not climb much above that). His experience has been good and the concentrator is able to keep his blood oxygen saturation at 98% and works fine plugged into the cigarette lighter.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[LANCECASPER]

I bought an Inogen back in 2017 off of craigslist with just a few hours on it. It works great up to 15,000 ft. No problems whatsoever. If I go higher than that I use onboard oxygen.

[RobertGary1]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I bought an Inogen back in 2017 off of craigslist with just a few hours on it. It works great up to 15,000 ft. No problems whatsoever. If I go higher than that I use onboard oxygen.

What powers it?

[A64Pilot]

9 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I bought an Inogen back in 2017 off of craigslist with just a few hours on it. It works great up to 15,000 ft. No problems whatsoever. If I go higher than that I use onboard oxygen.

I’ve looked every now and again on Facebook marketplace, seems most go for about 2K? I’ve not pulled the trigger yet

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

What powers it?

My Inogen One G4 is powered by a built in 4 hour battery and a cig lighter adaptor. It weighs 2.8 lbs. and fits into my Sporty’s flight bag.

Also you can split it and use two cannulas. You can spent a lot of money here to get it (https://www.inogenaviator.com/products)  or Amazon sells a splitter for just a few dollars.

 

[Pasturepilot]

The AME in AOPA Pilot wrote a column a few months ago that mentioned a novel idea - that a CPAP could be adapted for flight. It's not that there is less oxygen in the air - it's that the air is less dense. A CPAP, for purpose of discussion here, is essentially an air compressor and would work to keep you breathing the proper amounts of oxygen into the flight levels. 

I'm not a doc, a scientist, or even a real smart fella. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so if someone shoots that idea full of holes, so be it.. 

[A64Pilot]

A CPAP’s pressure is measured in Cm or water, most CPAP’s are capable of a max pressure of 25 which is .35 PSi.

One of you math guys can figure out how many feet of altitude equals .35 PSI, I can tell you that a CPAP mask at that pressure woud be pretty uncomfortable, my pressure is 10 for whatever that’s worth.

‘If this calculator is correct (I have no idea) then a CPAP can reduce you perceived altitude by roughly 650 ft?

Assuming I did ir right, sounds low to me.

https://www.mide.com/air-pressure-at-altitude-calculator

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by A64Pilot

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Pasturepilot said:

The AME in AOPA Pilot wrote a column a few months ago that mentioned a novel idea - that a CPAP could be adapted for flight. It's not that there is less oxygen in the air - it's that the air is less dense. A CPAP, for purpose of discussion here, is essentially an air compressor and would work to keep you breathing the proper amounts of oxygen into the flight levels. 

I'm not a doc, a scientist, or even a real smart fella. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so if someone shoots that idea full of holes, so be it.. 

If you’re planning on setting it on autopilot and catching a nap that might be a good choice. 

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

If you’re planning on setting it on autopilot and catching a nap that might be a good choice. 

Wouldn't the CPAP mask need a mic built in?

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

Wouldn't the CPAP mask need a mic built in?

Don’t see why you would need one while you’re sleeping. 

For the record, I think flying with a CPAP machine is a horrible idea. Unless you’re a passenger. And have sleep apnea. And are sleeping.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a concentrator, but with my Mountain High O2D2 up front and O2D1 in back and flying 1-2 times a week (unless there’s a miniature oil rig blocking the taxi lane) my tank lasts a whole year.

If I didn’t have a built-in tank the oxygen concentrator would be very appealing. Might be nice if you worked as a ferry pilot as well.

[carusoam]

The few recurrent issues often discussed with the O2 concentrators…

1) altitude dependent… and start running out of usability above 10k’… hey, isn’t that where we want it most often?

2) Volume limited… OK for one person, but not enough for a family of four….

3) Battery powered…

4) 12V plug in 

5) Watched these get used around the house once…. The portable concentrator was much better than the heavy O2 tanks for the same person….

 

Nice inogen pirep  Lance!

Best regards,

-a-

[jaylw314]

9 hours ago, Pasturepilot said:

The AME in AOPA Pilot wrote a column a few months ago that mentioned a novel idea - that a CPAP could be adapted for flight. It's not that there is less oxygen in the air - it's that the air is less dense. A CPAP, for purpose of discussion here, is essentially an air compressor and would work to keep you breathing the proper amounts of oxygen into the flight levels. 

I'm not a doc, a scientist, or even a real smart fella. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so if someone shoots that idea full of holes, so be it.. 

Sadly, it is a terrible idea.  CPAP is only intended to provide about 1% of one atmosphere of pressure, about 0.15 psi.

At 15k' MSL, there's 50% the air.  If you did compensate by doubling the static pressure, you'd need about 8 psi, and that will feel like breathing in from a 8 PSI air hose--not exactly what I'd call comfortable.   Increasing the pressure only during inhalation doesn't work, it still only ventilates the same amount of gas (it just takes less time to fill the lung volume).  You need double the pressure at the end of inhalation for it to increase ventilation, and that would feel no bueno--that would be like taking a hit from a scuba tank at 15' of depth, then surfacing without exhaling.  Maybe not life-threatening, but definitely uncomfortable and not recommended.

 

[A64Pilot]

For really high altitudes even on O2 you have to have a pressure mask, I’ve been told they are very uncomfortable and it’s difficult to talk against the pressure, but I’ve never worn one

 

These guys I was told wore pressure masks, it’s not in the article but it’s my understanding the record attempt stopped when one blade stalled and went out of track

https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/30-december-1968/

Edited March 9, 2022 by A64Pilot

[carusoam]

Oooops…

a few ways to get more O2 into the lungs…

1) Increase O2% inhaled…

2) Increase cabin pressure…

3) With extra effort, increase pressure to the lungs…. Kind of goofy to try while busy flying…

Increasing the pressure to the lungs, without increasing the pressure around the whole body… has got to have some goofy side effects…. 

 

PP summary only…

-a-

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

For really high altitudes even on O2 you have to have a pressure mask, I’ve been told they are very uncomfortable and it’s difficult to talk against the pressure, but I’ve never worn one

 

These guys I was told wore pressure masks, it’s not in the article but it’s my understanding the record attempt stopped when one blade stalled and went out of track

https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/30-december-1968/

That's crazy!  I guess the Indian Army has done some helicopter rescue missions from Mt Everest, but I'm guessing that was from the base camp a few thousand feet lower.  Yikes.

[A64Pilot]

The highest landing for a helicopter was I believe actually on the top of Everest, my guess would be that the winds were high enough so that it didn’t actually hover, but was still in effective translational lift, which would greatly reduce power required.

https://verticalmag.com/features/landing-everest-didier-delsalle-recalls-record-flight/

The Crane is a slow helicopter, I believe during its record attempt it was climbing vertically, faster than its level flight VNE. Article I read said it was chained to the ground and the pilots pulled pitch until the rotor bled RPM, then explosive bolts were fired to turn it loose and pitch increased until rotor bled again, in other words they pulled the guts out of it :)

 

Helicopters aren’t always what many think, the Redbull show isn’t anything that hasn’t been done for a long time, there used to be a German Sgt that would really put the BO-105 through a show in Germany, flying different Army helicopters, no special prep etc.

, there 

Edited March 9, 2022 by A64Pilot

[JohnB]

On 3/7/2022 at 7:18 PM, LANCECASPER said:

I bought an Inogen back in 2017 off of craigslist with just a few hours on it. It works great up to 15,000 ft. No problems whatsoever. If I go higher than that I use onboard oxygen.

Curious, where do you keep your unit when running, back seat? Between your seats? Can you or do you run yours on aircraft power with an adapter? Seriously thinking of getting one as my long flights are typically between 10k and 16k, and places to refill my onboard oxygen are becoming less common.

 

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, JohnB said:

Curious, where do you keep your unit when running, back seat? Between your seats? Can you or do you run yours on aircraft power with an adapter? Seriously thinking of getting one as my long flights are typically between 10k and 16k, and places to refill my onboard oxygen are becoming less common.

 

It’s smaller than you would think. If I’m flying alone I just put it in the co-pilot’s seat. If not, it’s small enough that I can set it on the floor by the fuel tank selector.  The cigarette lighter adaptor runs it fine. I now have an Acclaim that puts out 12 v on the panel cig.lighter socket. In my Bravo which put out 24v I used a 28-14v adaptor. (John, If you end up getting one and needing the adaptor let me know.)

[rbp]

holy crap, the Inogen G4 is $2,651 new!  that's a lot of fills 

 

https://www.inogen.com/product/g4-system/