Recommendation on purchase

[TSC1020]

New to Mooney Space here, my wife and I are looking to purchase a Mooney M20 E/F. Would love to get our hands on a J model, but I don't think our budget of $50,000-90,000 will allow for that in this current market. Some history about myself, I'm a professional pilot, and we are looking to travel and do longer XCs with the occasional 4 adult hamburger run. I believe we will mostly be flying two adults and one child. We would love one with some kind of Garmin 430 or better and a two-axis auto pilot. If anyone is selling one, please drop the link. We are prepared to buy!

The question I have is about the STC turbo on a couple E models that we are looking at. I am in the understanding that the turbo does increase some level of maintenance and cost. My question would be is it a nightmare that is going to cause anything to become unreliable? Additionally, outside of the fuel tanks, landing gear, AD on some props, and corrosion. What are some other things to pay attention to when looking at these? As well, what are some good shops to take a Mooney to for a pre-buy. Any other info on each of the models would be appreciated. 

Thanks much!

Edited January 28, 2022 by TSC1020

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard TSC…

The M20C and E make great forever-planes…

The turbo normalizer is a great piece of equipment to have… but, if dough limited… it is OK to skip this opportunity…

 

Buying the plane is a big risk… having a PPI done by a reputable mechanic is your best defense…

-a-

[Mcstealth]

2 hours ago, TSC1020 said:

New to Mooney Space here, my wife and I are looking to purchase a Mooney M20 E/F. Would love to get our hands on a J model, but I don't think our budget of $50,000-90,000 will allow for that in this current market. Some history about myself, I'm a professional pilot, and we are looking to travel and do longer XCs with the occasional 4 adult hamburger run. I believe we will mostly be flying two adults and one child. We would love one with some kind of Garmin 430 or better and a two-axis auto pilot. If anyone is selling one, please drop the link. We are prepared to buy!

The question I have is about the STC turbo on a couple E models that we are looking at. I am in the understanding that the turbo does increase some level of maintenance and cost. My question would be is it a nightmare that is going to cause anything to become unreliable? Additionally, outside of the fuel tanks, landing gear, AD on some props, and corrosion. What are some other things to pay attention to when looking at these? As well, what are some good shops to take a Mooney to for a pre-buy. Any other info on each of the models would be appreciated. 

Thanks much!

Welcome aboard 1020. 

Please go to the General page and post a proper hello. All the guys and girls will welcome you proper. 

As far as an Emodel turbo goes, there is only one option. That is with an STC'ed RayJay system added to the E. They turn up every now and then, but I would consider it a rare bird. By all accounts, all Mooneys with the added RayJays perform as advertised and add that much more to the upkeep of the plane. It would be easier and much faster in my opinion to save for a K model. 

David 

 

[TSC1020]

44 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard TSC…

The M20C and E make great forever-planes…

The turbo normalizer is a great piece of equipment to have… but, if dough limited… it is OK to skip this opportunity…

 

Buying the plane is a big risk… having a PPI done by a reputable mechanic is your best defense…

-a-

Thank you for the response, to get an idea. How much does a turbo add to your yearly mx costs? I understand it increases your GPH quite a bit. 

[TSC1020]

10 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

Welcome aboard 1020. 

Please go to the General page and post a proper hello. All the guys and girls will welcome you proper. 

As far as an Emodel turbo goes, there is only one option. That is with an STC'ed RayJay system added to the E. They turn up every now and then, but I would consider it a rare bird. By all accounts, all Mooneys with the added RayJays perform as advertised and add that much more to the upkeep of the plane. It would be easier and much faster in my opinion to save for a K model. 

David 

 

Thanks for the response, yes, I am looking at a few online that have the STC turbo added. I was asking what kind of additional upkeep one can expect. I know they have to check the lines and rebuild the internals of the turbo every now and then. 

[Mcstealth]

Well, to those that own and fly turbo charged or turbo normalized planes, it is a cost that they accept and plan on. 

There are many here on this site that claim that the turbo cost is marginal, as long as you maintain the system properly. The exhaust for sure must be inspected along with hoses and the snail itself so yes the annual will be more expensive. A RayJay E is a wicked bird though. Would eat unsuspecting Bonanzas for lunch.

[201Steve]

All I will say is, go ahead and push your budget 30% more than you were originally comfortable. Not because of your number specifically, but anyones original budget.  Assuming you aren’t by nature financially reckless. have access to 20 amu’s at all time, and find the most pristine bird you can find near modified budget, be it an c e f j or k. Be patient and look at a lot of planes. 

[0TreeLemur]

I'd agree with @carusoam, the C is a nice bird to own.   Don't rule it out.  With 20 fewer horses and a carburetor, it is a bit slower than an E.  But- less than 10 minutes difference in ETA for a 200 NM trip.  There are some nice "forever" upgraded C's out there well within your budget.  Lowest cost of ownership in the Mooney fleet.  If you can find one that somebody has loved, its a great buy.

Carburetor- in all my cloud flying I've only had ice once.   Since the carb is connected to the oil pan, it gets a lot of heat from the engine.   Plus no fuel servo to worry about.

 

[Mooneymite]

In addition to the items you mentioned, consider the location history of any plane.  Shiney paint can cover up a lot of blemishes.   An "always hangared" plane and planes that have avoided harsh environments avoid the aging/corrosion process better.

[MBDiagMan]

…. and buying a Lycoming powered plane that has set a lot without flying, especially in a humid climate carrys great risk.  My F had set several years before they put it back in service.  When they did they pulled jugs and inspected thoroughly.  It made it about 100 hours before it started making metal.  Two lifters were spalled requiring the case to be split.  I highly recommend not buying a plane that has not been flown and serviced regularly.  My lesson was very expensive.  Learn from it.

 

[Browncbr1]

For your mission, it seems that an E would be best.  The F is a little longer and higher useful load, but slightly slower (all aftermarket being equal).   The E is cheaper to acquire and therefore, cheaper to insure.   If you’re going to fill the back seat most of the time, then get an F.   In my mind, although a Js cost is so much higher, it is equal to an E because most J’s seem to have less useful load, thereby making their speed and carrying ability similar to Es.  (iMHO)
 

turbos are nice, and some people are persuaded by the great TAS up high.  However, in the real world, usually a headwinds in the teens will eat up the TAS gains.  A good tail wind happens less often than a headwind.   Secondly, running higher requires use of O2, which adds quite a bit of cost per person and the higher you go.   Some people gaze at those wonderful TAS numbers in the flight levels, but once you wear a mask (required 18’k and up), you will decide it’s not worth the discomfort and hassle or time to climb.  You also run into cooling issues way up high without an intercooler.  I’ve always said, a turbo is pointless on the east coast unless pressurized vessel.   So, if you’re looking at a Ray jay E, I would think of it as a tool to get high to go over nasty weather, but still figure most of your flying would be lower unless you are ok sucking and paying for O2 all the time. I’ve never flown one of the rayjay Stc birds though.  I’ve flown K with intercooler and pretty quickly discerned that it would be better to have a turbo twinCo than the K. 

[TSC1020]

17 hours ago, 201Steve said:

All I will say is, go ahead and push your budget 30% more than you were originally comfortable. Not because of your number specifically, but anyones original budget.  Assuming you aren’t by nature financially reckless. have access to 20 amu’s at all time, and find the most pristine bird you can find near modified budget, be it an c e f j or k. Be patient and look at a lot of planes. 

We kind of already did that, 100k would be the absolute top of what we want to do. It seems like 125k will get a nicely equipped aircraft. 

[TSC1020]

16 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

In addition to the items you mentioned, consider the location history of any plane.  Shiney paint can cover up a lot of blemishes.   An "always hangared" plane and planes that have avoided harsh environments avoid the aging/corrosion process better.

Thank you, I am trying to stay away from coastal birds. Someone had one based out of the Bahamas, so I walked on that. 

[TSC1020]

2 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

…. and buying a Lycoming powered plane that has set a lot without flying, especially in a humid climate carrys great risk.  My F had set several years before they put it back in service.  When they did they pulled jugs and inspected thoroughly.  It made it about 100 hours before it started making metal.  Two lifters were spalled requiring the case to be split.  I highly recommend not buying a plane that has not been flown and serviced regularly.  My lesson was very expensive.  Learn from it.

 

Definitely want something that has been flown at least 50-100 hours per year. Now if the plane hadn't been flown, and it just got out of a major overhaul recently, thoughts?

[TSC1020]

1 hour ago, Browncbr1 said:

For your mission, it seems that an E would be best.  The F is a little longer and higher useful load, but slightly slower (all aftermarket being equal).   The E is cheaper to acquire and therefore, cheaper to insure.   If you’re going to fill the back seat most of the time, then get an F.   In my mind, although a Js cost is so much higher, it is equal to an E because most J’s seem to have less useful load, thereby making their speed and carrying ability similar to Es.  (iMHO)
 

turbos are nice, and some people are persuaded by the great TAS up high.  However, in the real world, usually a headwinds in the teens will eat up the TAS gains.  A good tail wind happens less often than a headwind.   Secondly, running higher requires use of O2, which adds quite a bit of cost per person and the higher you go.   Some people gaze at those wonderful TAS numbers in the flight levels, but once you wear a mask (required 18’k and up), you will decide it’s not worth the discomfort and hassle or time to climb.  You also run into cooling issues way up high without an intercooler.  I’ve always said, a turbo is pointless on the east coast unless pressurized vessel.   So, if you’re looking at a Ray jay E, I would think of it as a tool to get high to go over nasty weather, but still figure most of your flying would be lower unless you are ok sucking and paying for O2 all the time. I’ve never flown one of the rayjay Stc birds though.  I’ve flown K with intercooler and pretty quickly discerned that it would be better to have a turbo twinCo than the K. 

Thank you, that makes sense. I figured the E model will be fine for our purposes. Have you been in the back of a E model?

[TSC1020]

Any reputable Mooney mechanics near KDAL (Dallas, TX)? Or KMFR (Medford, OR) that can do a pre-buy?

[Browncbr1]

19 minutes ago, TSC1020 said:

Thank you, that makes sense. I figured the E model will be fine for our purposes. Have you been in the back of a E model?

Yes, I’ve been in the back of an E (on the ground).  I’m pretty skinny.  170lbs 5’11”..  it would be ok on short flights.   I wouldn’t want to be in the back much more than an hour without being able to stretch my legs.  If it’s just one adult in the back, it’s ok because you can sit sorta sideways and stretch out a little better, but I wouldn’t enjoy the ride with two adults in the back.    The extra 10” of the F makes all the difference for legs and baggage volume and more useful.  
 

back when I bough my F, I didn’t necessarily need it.  An E would have been ok, but I knew that as my two kids grow, I would need the extra space and load carrying ability.   I bought forever plane the first time

Edited January 29, 2022 by Browncbr1

[TSC1020]

Thoughts on Mooneys with a gear up landing?

[TSC1020]

4 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

Yes, I’ve been in the back of an E (on the ground).  I’m pretty skinny.  170lbs 5’11”..  it would be ok on short flights.   I wouldn’t want to be in the back much more than an hour without being able to stretch my legs.  If it’s just one adult in the back, it’s ok because you can sit sorta sideways and stretch out a little better, but I wouldn’t enjoy the ride with two adults in the back.    The extra 10” of the F makes all the difference for legs and baggage volume and more useful.  

Appreciate it! 

[Browncbr1]

1 minute ago, TSC1020 said:

Thoughts on Mooneys with a gear up landing?

Mooney’s seem to take gear ups really well as long as they aren’t slammed..   I wouldn’t mind one if properly fixed and majored engine, together with some years of use afterward

[TSC1020]

8 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

Mooney’s seem to take gear ups really well as long as they aren’t slammed..   I wouldn’t mind one if properly fixed and majored engine, together with some years of use afterward

The one I am seeing had a gear up in 2018, and had its engine overhauled after. It has only had 50 hours on the tach since the incident. 

[hammdo]

Edge Aviation in Commerce (2F7). I take my plane to them. Just a heads up, he'll want to do an annual as he's seen too many 'pre-buys' not catch things.

Gear ups are not a problem if repaired right.

-Don

[MBDiagMan]

45 minutes ago, TSC1020 said:

Definitely want something that has been flown at least 50-100 hours per year. Now if the plane hadn't been flown, and it just got out of a major overhaul recently, thoughts?

Yeah, if it had a recent zeroed overhaul then that’s a different matter.  It’s corrosion on a lifter that is the drastic result of a long idle period.

[201Steve]

1 hour ago, TSC1020 said:

We kind of already did that

Case in point, it’s inevitable. 

[ilovecornfields]

2 hours ago, TSC1020 said:

Any reputable Mooney mechanics near KDAL (Dallas, TX)? Or KMFR (Medford, OR) that can do a pre-buy?

Greg at Advanced Aircraft (TTD) is excellent. He saved me tens of thousands of dollars on a prebuy.