Want best speech intelligibility in flight and long term hearing protection? Why I'm switching to ANR from a light foam plug passive headset, and you should too.

[EricJ]

31 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Yeah - it looks EXACTLY the same to the point of being a rip off?

Availability of blue tooth though is nice.

It's not a new concept. 

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

It's not a new concept. 

Are those the same concept though?  Plastic tubes with spongy ear foams at the end?

[philip_g]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Are those the same concept though?  Plastic tubes with spongy ear foams at the end?

They're not really. The tube from the headset goes to a rubber Bibby that sticks in your ear. There are a few sizes of Bibby. The mic is a clear plastic tube with a bit of foam in the end. I have the more modern version of the same headset. I can get pics of it. I don't use it as the quality of the mic is awful and the newer over thebear headsets have noise cancelling mics and I repeat myself less often. Anyway the newer kine hang on your ear rather than the headband but they are functionally the same.

 

If someone made me a Plantronics quick disconnect to aviation two prong adapter I'd use my Bose

Edited November 7, 2021 by philip_g

[0TreeLemur]

Great thread....   Lovin' it.   Nerds.

[Andy95W]

13 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

 

Availability of blue tooth though is nice.

Erik- agreed.  Here is an option:

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/blulink.php

There is also an adapter that is hardwired instead of Bluetooth.  I got that one, it’s only $100 and works fantastic.

[aviatoreb]

5 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Erik- agreed.  Here is an option:

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/blulink.php

There is also an adapter that is hardwired instead of Bluetooth.  I got that one, it’s only $100 and works fantastic.

That's pretty neat Andy!

Edited November 8, 2021 by aviatoreb

[A64Pilot]

I just bumped into this thread and did a quick scan, but didn’t read it all, so if this has been posted already I apologize.

If your primary desire is hearing protection don’t get a Bose headset, or any other headset that doesn’t work well with the ANR off, reason is they are very poor passive sets, they rely heavily on the magic of ANR and that’s a great marketing tool. Salesman says just turn it on and see how good it is. Impressive isn’t it?

Problem is ANR can’t cover all freqs. 

So if you have a Bose or similar headset,  wear the foam plugs under them and turn up the volume. The cheap foamies are actually extremely protective

Another way is to get a very good passive headset and add ANR to them, that gives you the best of both worlds, ANR on top of a good passive set really reduces noise. Headsets Inc is a good passive set with an ANR kit installed, If you have a favorite legacy David Clark you love, why not upgrade them with gel ear cushions and an ANR  kit? Makes them among the best headset available then.

I have three helmets with ANR kits installed and a headset from these people

https://www.headsetsinc.com

Note where it says they service every headset they have ever sold.

I’ve had two Bose headsets that Bose wouldn’t fix as they don’t support them anymore, so that’s $2,000 in the trash. Any of my Headsets inc can be repaired regardless of age, I have had the oldest since 02 and haven’t needed a repair yet

Edited November 8, 2021 by A64Pilot

[philip_g]

55 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I just bumped into this thread and did a quick scan, but didn’t read it all, so if this has been posted already I apologize.

If your primary desire is hearing protection don’t get a Bose headset, or any other headset that doesn’t work well with the ANR off, reason is they are very poor passive sets, they rely heavily on the magic of ANR and that’s a great marketing tool. Salesman says just turn it on and see how good it is. Impressive isn’t it?

Problem is ANR can’t cover all freqs. 

So if you have a Bose or similar headset,  wear the foam plugs under them and turn up the volume. The cheap foamies are actually extremely protective

Another way is to get a very good passive headset and add ANR to them, that gives you the best of both worlds, ANR on top of a good passive set really reduces noise. Headsets Inc is a good passive set with an ANR kit installed, If you have a favorite legacy David Clark you love, why not upgrade them with gel ear cushions and an ANR  kit? Makes them among the best headset available then.

I have three helmets with ANR kits installed and a headset from these people

https://www.headsetsinc.com

Note where it says they service every headset they have ever sold.

I’ve had two Bose headsets that Bose wouldn’t fix as they don’t support them anymore, so that’s $2,000 in the trash. Any of my Headsets inc can be repaired regardless of age, I have had the oldest since 02 and haven’t needed a repair yet

I had a headsets Inc kit in a Dave Clark headset and had the opposite experience. It never attenuated as well and made weird droning noises. I stopped using them in favor of Bose long ago

[DXB]

26 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I just bumped into this thread and did a quick scan, but didn’t read it all, so if this has been posted already I apologize.

If your primary desire is hearing protection don’t get a Bose headset, or any other headset that doesn’t work well with the ANR off, reason is they are very poor passive sets, they rely heavily on the magic of ANR and that’s a great marketing tool. Salesman says just turn it on and see how good it is. Impressive isn’t it?

Problem is ANR can’t cover all freqs. 

So if you have a Bose or similar headset,  wear the foam plugs under them and turn up the volume. The cheap foamies are actually extremely protective

Another way is to get a very good passive headset and add ANR to them, that gives you the best of both worlds, ANR on top of a good passive set really reduces noise. Headsets Inc is a good passive set with an ANR kit installed, If you have a favorite legacy David Clark you love, why not upgrade them with gel ear cushions and an ANR  kit? Makes them among the best headset available then.

I have three helmets with ANR kits installed and a headset from these people

https://www.headsetsinc.com

Note where it says they service every headset they have ever sold.

I’ve had two Bose headsets that Bose wouldn’t fix as they don’t support them anymore, so that’s $2,000 in the trash. Any of my Headsets inc can be repaired regardless of age, I have had the oldest since 02 and haven’t needed a repair yet

A few misconceptions here....

"If your primary desire is hearing protection don’t get a Bose headset, or any other headset that doesn’t work well with the ANR off, reason is they are very poor passive sets, they rely heavily on the magic of ANR and that’s a great marketing tool. Salesman says just turn it on and see how good it is. Impressive isn’t it?"  Don't use it as a passive set. A20s are inferior passive sets because the clamping pressure was reduced relative to over the ear passive sets in order to increase user comfort. Even with the reduced pressure, they provide objectively far superior noise attenuation in the frequency range where there's loud noise in our piston single cockpits. The fact that it facilitates cute salesman tricks is just a side benefit. 

"Problem is ANR can’t cover all freqs."  True but it doesn't need to.  The sound profile in our particular cockpits (i.e. turbines = different animal) is heavily biased toward the low frequencies where ANR excels, so it's not a problem.

"So if you have a Bose or similar headset,  wear the foam plugs under them and turn up the volume. The cheap foamies are actually extremely protective."  Foamies are superior to ANR at the high frequencies, but that's not where the dangerous noise is in our cockpits, so the plugs aren't buying you much.  The modest passive attenuation of good ANR headsets at high frequencies is more than sufficient for the low levels of sound present in the range of speech and higher.  So all the plugs will do for you is force you to turn up the volume so you can hear ATC. Zero sum game at best. 

"Another way is to get a very good passive headset and add ANR to them, that gives you the best of both worlds, ANR on top of a good passive set really reduces noise."  Again, an over the ear headset designed for optimal passive attenuation has a high clamping pressure.  In principle, adding ANR to it may give the maximum low to mid frequency attenuation attainable, though foamies remain the gold standard for high frequency. But the added discomfort to the wearer doesn't seem worth it when ANR is so effective already within the sound profile of piston single cockpit noise. 

In the end there is no single optimal hearing protection strategy - each sound profile brings its own challenges. I'm just addressing the Mooney cockpit here.

 

[PT20J]

I looked into this a while back. Here are a few observations.

1. Foam earplugs can provide good hearing protection. 3M claims the E.A.R. has 29 dB attenuation. Numerous studies can be easily found that support this and many include graphs of attenuation vs. frequency. However, you don't get this attenuation level unless the plugs are inserted properly, and in my experience, few people insert them according to the directions: Fitting Instructions for Ear Plugs.pdf

2. Both Bose and Lightspeed ANR headsets have similar insertion loss to the E.A.R. plugs. I was only able to find one study, but the results confirm my experience that the Bose A20 is slightly quieter than the Zulu 3. I tested this in a de Havilland Beaver which is VERY noisy. In the M20J, I don't notice much difference and personally find the Zulu a bit more comfortable. Insertionlosstestingofactivenoisereduction.pdf

One point about the Halo-type headsets is that the earplug is punctured by the tube conveying audio to the ear canal and this puncture is connected to a rather long plastic tube. I have no idea how this might affect the attenuation of the earplug; it would be interesting to see some actual measurements.

Choosing a headset is a highly personal decision. The attenuation differences between foam and ANR are very likely minimal. Either is a good choice and certainly better than a cheap passive headset. If you use the foam type, make sure you are inserting them properly to completely seal the canal.

Skip

[midlifeflyer]

On 11/7/2021 at 11:35 AM, DXB said:

This may address @midlifeflyer 's question...

I wondered why the superior comfort and high frequency deadening of foam ear canal insert-based headsets haven't been effectively combined with the superior low frequency performance of ANR. I think part of the answer is that effective ANR for low frequency relies in large part on a microphone inside the ear cup to drive the cancelling wave generation algorithm. The insert-based headsets may not have room for such a microphone.  There is this Bose earbud-based headset and a couple cheap knockoffs on the market that I suspect use an external microphone to drive ANR, but their performance does not seem suitable for the low frequency-biased noise profiles of our planes. They are marketed for jets exclusively, and I wonder if they're really any better than foam inserts in that environment.

https://www.bose.com/en_us/products/headphones/aviation_headsets/proflight-aviation-headset-ii.html#v=proflight_hdst_ii_portable

I mentioned it because I have a UFQ. I only use it in certain airplanes in the summer so I can wear a floppy hat over it for additional shade. But in the noisiest airplane I fly, it's quieter than my Lightspeed.

[DonMuncy]

I don't presume to know what works for everyone, but my David Clarks with Headsets Inc's ANR modules work very well for me. I have listened to Boses before, and they seem quieter than mine, but for the price difference I am quite happy.

[midlifeflyer]

16 hours ago, DXB said:

Again, an over the ear headset designed for optimal passive attenuation has a high clamping pressure.

Not always. The single quietest headset I've ever worn was a Telex 50D. It was a 1 lb behemoth with very good PNR and superior ANR. But they somehow managed the head pad, ear pads and weight distribution in a way that clamping pressure was minimal.  Telex has abandoned the GA market entirely and customer service went down the toilet years ago but I still have it and use it for passengers. 

of course, as you point out, with ANR off, while muted, the low-frequency rumble is there. 

[midlifeflyer]

11 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

I don't presume to know what works for everyone, but my David Clarks with Headsets Inc's ANR modules work very well for me. I have listened to Boses before, and they seem quieter than mine, but for the price difference I am quite happy.

My first ANR was a Peltor 7004 (lightweight PNR before the term came into vogue) with a Headsets Inc conversion. Was really sorry to have to replace it,

[DXB]

4 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Not always. The single quietest headset I've ever worn was a Telex 50D. It was a 1 lb behemoth with very good PNR and superior ANR. But they somehow managed the head pad, ear pads and weight distribution in a way that clamping pressure was minimal.  Telex has abandoned the GA market entirely and customer service went down the toilet years ago but I still have it and use it for passengers. 

of course, as you point out, with ANR off, while muted, the low-frequency rumble is there. 

That's actually my point - an ANR headset like your Telex 50D can afford to be comfortable by reducing clamping pressure (without ANR, an over the ear headset has to either be uncomfortably tight or bad at attenuation) - and the set you describe is only 4 oz heavier than a Bose A20 and 2 oz heavier than a lightspeed zulu.  

[0TreeLemur]

 @DXB help me understand.   A change in the sound sensitivity distribution can result in an autonomic perception of ear pressure?   Maybe that's why in a noisy environment with unprotected ears I have the sensation that my left ear is blocked?  When wearing my over-the-ear ANC headset I do feel the "ear-suck" when it activates, but I never have that blocked sensation while wearing ANC.  Maybe by killing the lower frequencies, it pulls my hearing frequency distribution back into something like normal?  Thanks.

[Andy95W]

11 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

My first ANR was a Peltor 7004 (lightweight PNR before the term came into vogue) with a Headsets Inc conversion. Was really sorry to have to replace it,

Oddly enough, mine too!  When the ANR died, I went back to the passive Peltor and it was my favorite headset.  My QT Halo is a close second- but still second.

[DXB]

22 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

 @DXB help me understand.   A change in the sound sensitivity distribution can result in an autonomic perception of ear pressure?   Maybe that's why in a noisy environment with unprotected ears I have the sensation that my left ear is blocked?  When wearing my over-the-ear ANC headset I do feel the "ear-suck" when it activates, but I never have that blocked sensation while wearing ANC.  Maybe by killing the lower frequencies, it pulls my hearing frequency distribution back into something like normal?  Thanks.

A loud noise triggers a reflex that contracts the tensor tympani muscle, which pulls the ear bone attached to the eardrum (the malleus) inward into the middle ear space, thus tensioning it against the eardrum and thus stabilizing it from large amplitude movements that could damage the inner ear.  A similar reflex contracts a second tiny muscle, the stapedius, which attaches to the stapes.  The stapes is the last of the 3 little ear bones that connects the eardrum to the inner ear (specifically the cochlea) and makes direct contact with the cochlea via the oval window. The stapedius muscle thus directly prevents the stapes from banging too hard against the oval window of the cochlea, and the tensor tympani does so indirectly. The cochlea contains all those delicate hair cells that get damaged easily from either physical or chemical toxic insults, making us lose our hearing.  The fact that these muscle protective mechanisms are evolutionarily conserved across mammals tells us how vulnerable the inner ear really is to loud sound. One can certainly feel some ear pressure from these muscles contracting in response to loud sound.  There are also rhythmic spasms that some people can experience for these muscles even in absence of a sound stimulus that can be annoying.

I'm not sure these reflexes have anything to do with the "ear suck" and some other types of dysphoria a subset of people experience with ANR - I tend to think not.   I suspect those are phantom sensations that arise from aberrant sound processing within the neural circuitry of the auditory cortex of the brain.  ANR forces the brain to process a strange new sound profile where the low frequencies just drop out asymmetrically. The central auditory system isn't adapted to process this kind of profile because it looks nothing like sound profiles encountered in the real world, and so the output the auditory cortex gives to your higher brain centers contains some aberrant signals.  That's pure conjecture on my part, but there's surprisingly little that's known about the phenomenon it seems.  I bet real hearing scientists who study the auditory cortex would have a lot to say about it.  I'm not one of them though.  

Edited November 10, 2021 by DXB

[Hank]

Huh. So my brain works funny, making me feel pressure when activating the ANR circuit of a headset. AND I'm one of the lucky few who taste bitter from aspartame, at least initially. 

My luck has not yet extended to a winning lottery ticket . . . . .

[Shadrach]

On 11/3/2021 at 2:44 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

I kind of like hearing the engine. I swear I can hear the internal parts doing their thing. With ANR I can't hear the engine much at all. The pistons could be flying out the side of the cowl and I would never know it.

My experience has been the opposite. The detail of the mechanical sounds audible with ANR was disconcerting the first time I used them.  Engine noise went from a homogeneous drone to a collection of prop, valve train and exhaust sounds (especially with the heater valve open). I have a set of DCs that I flew with for years...I switched to Bose X about 15 years ago, shortly after I bought a second set for the Copilot seat. The DCs were pushed to the rear seat along with the $99 Flightcom headsets I bought 20+ years ago for flight training. When the A20 came out, my X was pressed into rear seat passenger duty.  So now we have three ANRs and a single, passive set of DCs. No one who has experienced the Bose wants to use the DCs.  

Sidebar:  As much as I love the function of Bose products, they are not very durable. Wires break internally, the insulation cracks and splits. The ear pad foam disintegrates leaving black flecks on user's ears. All but the A20s (which now have a flakey connection in the com wire) have been sent back for the "flat fee" overhaul at least once. Contrast my two decade old Flightcoms which have very little visible wear and are still on the original ear cups.

[Hank]

OK, @Shadrach! We get your point already!   Five times?

[Shadrach]

Just now, Hank said:

OK, @Shadrach! We get your point already!   Five times?

Trigger problems... Rectified!

[Danb]

On 11/8/2021 at 8:40 PM, DonMuncy said:

I don't presume to know what works for everyone, but my David Clarks with Headsets Inc's ANR modules work very well for me. I have listened to Boses before, and they seem quieter than mine, but for the price difference I am quite happy.

Don a question totally unrelated to this thread, we’re you a CFI in 1988, working at Flight Safety in SanAntonio, I noticed my logs signed by a D Muncy?

[DonMuncy]

Dan,

No, I am not a CFI. And didn't start flying until the 90s.

[0TreeLemur]

While on a long cross country January 1st, my DC headclamp with  installed ANR circuitry  malfunctioned.   The right side and only the right side started with an intermittent low squeal that got worse over about 10 minutes to the point that I had to turn off the ANR circuit.    Stopped for refueling, and tried them again on my second leg.  Same problem.   Flew most of that leg with ANR switched off.

I used my co-pilot's ANR headset which has the same ANR circuit installed for most of my return trip yesterday.  Towards the end I tried my squealing headset and it seemed to work fine.  What causes feedback between the ANR microphone and speaker?   That's what it sounded like.  I'm wondering if this indicates that the headset ANR circuit is failing, my gel-filled ear cup is failing, or something else is going on?