Mooney down in Washington state

[Hank]

13 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I just looked at the report, has anyone seen the inside of a turbines exhaust stack be perfectly clean? I never have, and yet this one seems to be.

Is that some kind of photo effect?

It's probably related to that nice airplane having 55 hours since leaving the factory . . . . .

[Jerry 5TJ]

The Bravo pilot climbed into the flight levels.  Hypoxia could have been a cause or factor in his crash.  New-to-him O2 system, perhaps.  

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

Isn’t that like saying anti-lock brakes, airbags and instrument ratings are dangerous because they encourage you to take risks you otherwise wouldn’t?

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the equipment, it’s the decision-making that’s at fault as@aviatoreb eloquently pointed out. We both have very capable TKS airplanes and fly them like we have no ice protection. Maybe it’s a waste, but I feel more comfortable knowing I have another backup if I inadvertently find myself in an unexpected dangerous situation. We’ve both also make the same comment about CAPS and the utility of having another tool at your disposal when things unexpectedly go south.

Nothing wrong with having TKS.  I just said that sometimes "It makes the decision making process easier".

[philip_g]

3 hours ago, donkaye said:

Nothing wrong with having TKS.  I just said that sometimes "It makes the decision making process easier".

In a fiki sr22t, I'd have launched in that without a second thought as long as the panels wet out on the ground ok. Hard to say if the result would have been different.

[Boilermonkey]

There are SR22s with FIKI that have been brought down by ice too.  There's only so much that a system can do.   

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Boilermonkey said:

There are SR22s with FIKI that have been brought down by ice too.  There's only so much that a system can do.   

Not too many years ago, certainly pre-pandemic, a turboprop was overcome by ice in NJ, I believe. He was cruising happily in it instead of requesting immediate climb, until he couldn't anymore. Mother Nature wins all fights with humans, every time.

Me? I'm a coward, just drove 4 hours each way last week to avoid dodging embedded thunderstorms for the first ~40 nm of a 150nm flight.

[Ragsf15e]

Just now, Hank said:

Not too many years ago, certainly pre-pandemic, a turboprop was overcome by ice in NJ, I believe. He was cruising happily in it instead of requesting immediate climb, until he couldn't anymore. Mother Nature wins all fights with humans, every time.

Me? I'm a coward, just drove 4 hours each way last week to avoid dodging embedded thunderstorms for the first ~40 nm of a 150nm flight.

Yeah it was a TBM too.  I fly a Meridian for work and I work hard to do a continuous full power climb or steep descent through any ice.  With ATC in the northwest you can usually work that out.  I have had my normal 130 kts, 1500fpm climb slowed to 130kts 200fpm as I popped out the top of the clouds with a good 1/2” on the boots before.  I don’t wish to repeat that.  
 

Maybe not so easy to coordinate in the northeast.

[philip_g]

2 hours ago, Boilermonkey said:

There are SR22s with FIKI that have been brought down by ice too.  There's only so much that a system can do.   

There have... SLD or FZDZ will do a number fast, but the pirep here was for less than moderate from 100-190. I'd take my chances at climbing through it. I would expect this plane with a functioning FIKI system to make it fine.

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by philip_g

[carusoam]

Notes for Givey…

There are four serious challenges for pilots…

Two are very important for pilots with less experience.

An additional two are added for more experienced pilots.

Depending on the plane you want to fly….  The risk mitigation strategies will be designed around you and your equipment…

The things you will learn along the way…

1) Don’t run out of fuel… 

2) Don’t accidentally fly into clouds… without the equipment and training to do so…

3) Don’t fly into thunderstorms…. The wind-shear can be stronger than the wings

4) Don’t fly into icing conditions… this is a triple threat… The engine becomes less powerful… the wings lift less weight…. The extra weight of the ice picked up requires more power to stay aloft…

If you find yourself in any of these conditions… recognize it, get out of them, ask for help from ATC (air traffic control)

Before any flight occurs… these risks get considered and Plans A, B, and C are formed before anything happens…

The more you know, the less mystery there is.  There is plenty to learn and experience to gain to be able to fly safely….  It can take many years depending on the level you want to achieve…

A skilled pilot, and a capable machine are still lost…

Just wanted to share some thoughts and details he surely considered beforehand…

Private Pilot thoughts only, not a flight instructor….

Best regards,

-a-

[mike_elliott]

@Givey, if you have contact info for the deceased's spouse, please consider sending it to me via PM or mike.elliott AT mooneysummit.com

So sad...another life lost and another letter

[A64Pilot]

On 11/2/2021 at 1:04 PM, Hank said:

It's probably related to that nice airplane having 55 hours since leaving the factory . . . . .

The stacks usually turn carbon black in just a few hours,I mean less than 5, just seemed odd is all.

[alextstone]

Sorry for the slight topic drift but this idea of aircraft familiarity really hits home with me.  I recently purchased a 1963 Cherokee 180 for my wife.  I have over 600 hrs in an Archer although quite some  time ago.  I picked up the plane in day VMC weather and flew it home after a few circuits in the pattern thinking I would take to it easily.  I quickly learned otherwise.  I was very distracted by the "switchology" among many other things.  I can't imagine how that must feel in a Bravo without significant time in the aircraft and in IMC/icing conditions.   

Also, a TBM 700 crashed and was totaled at my home field a month ago by a very experienced pilot new to that airframe.  He literally broke the left main and nose wheel and warped the wing and fuselage landing short of the runway.  No one was hurt, thank goodness.  Lessons everywhere I look.

 

[Marauder]

On 11/2/2021 at 11:54 PM, Ragsf15e said:

Yeah it was a TBM too.  I fly a Meridian for work and I work hard to do a continuous full power climb or steep descent through any ice.  With ATC in the northwest you can usually work that out.  I have had my normal 130 kts, 1500fpm climb slowed to 130kts 200fpm as I popped out the top of the clouds with a good 1/2” on the boots before.  I don’t wish to repeat that.  
 

Maybe not so easy to coordinate in the northeast.

That accident resulted in the plane crashing on Route 287. A major highway with 4 lanes in each direction in that stretch. Fortunately no one was injured on the highway.

I listened to the ATC track for that accident. The accident pilot was warned about moderate icing conditions and asked to report any icing issues so they could get him out of the conditions. HIs response was ""We'll let you know what happens when we get in there and if we can go straight through it. No problem for us," "

Pretty sad since children were involved.

The controllers in the northeast will accommodate deviations due to weather. You just need to know what your "get out of Dodge" plan is when you they ask you "state intentions".

[Blue on Top]

On 11/2/2021 at 11:59 AM, ilovecornfields said:

Isn’t that like saying anti-lock brakes, airbags and instrument ratings are dangerous because they encourage you to take risks you otherwise wouldn’t?

 as @aviatoreb eloquently pointed out.

Having extra, enhanced, safety equipment installed can change your risk assessment as @aviatoreb  so beautifully put it.  Any de-/anti- icing system adds a layer of safety but can also add a layer of non-existent armor to your thought process.  It depends on how one looks at the risk assessment.  I can tell you from experience that no anti- or de-icing system can handle all icing conditions.  Declaring yourself #1 at a busy airport is not an enjoyable experience.

Flying behind a tanker to learn flight characteristics in icing for the first time is a risk, but a mitigation is being able to fly out of the plume to shed ice.  Similarly when we add ice shapes to the leading edge surfaces for the first time ... portions of the span at a time. 

Something to think about is that the smaller the leading edge radius is, the quicker the surface will collect ice.  In other words, if the wing is collecting ice, the propeller, antennas (including COMM) and horizontal stabilizer already have ice.

My condolences to all.

Fly safe.

[jetdriven]

On 11/4/2021 at 1:12 PM, Marauder said:

That accident resulted in the plane crashing on Route 287. A major highway with 4 lanes in each direction in that stretch. Fortunately no one was injured on the highway.

I listened to the ATC track for that accident. The accident pilot was warned about moderate icing conditions and asked to report any icing issues so they could get him out of the conditions. HIs response was ""We'll let you know what happens when we get in there and if we can go straight through it. No problem for us," "

Pretty sad since children were involved.

The controllers in the northeast will accommodate deviations due to weather. You just need to know what your "get out of Dodge" plan is when you they ask you "state intentions".

I think that was same pilot who said he was getting a "light rattle" which was surprising to hear.  right after that it stalled and crashed.

[toto]

9 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I think that was same pilot who said he was getting a "light rattle" which was surprising to hear.  right after that it stalled and crashed.

I’ve never heard the term “light rattle” before - is this a standard phraseology? Do you know what he was describing?

[A64Pilot]

6 hours ago, toto said:

I’ve never heard the term “light rattle” before - is this a standard phraseology? Do you know what he was describing?

pre-stall buffeting is my bet

Edited November 21, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Pinecone]

On 11/2/2021 at 12:59 PM, ilovecornfields said:

Isn’t that like saying anti-lock brakes, airbags and instrument ratings are dangerous because they encourage you to take risks you otherwise wouldn’t?

At least for the first two, it seems so.  A writer for Auto Week postulated this a number of years ago.

In the days of drum brakes, you didn't tailgate as the brakes didn't work that well.  And in the wet, they were even worse.  Disc brakes made it better, but did not reduce the number of rear end collisions, as people just drove closer.  The same with antilock brakes, people think they are magic, not understanding basic physics that says my performance sports coupe can significantly out brake you massive SUV.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

In the days of drum brakes, you didn't tailgate as the brakes didn't work that well.  And in the wet, they were even worse.  Disc brakes made it better, but did not reduce the number of rear end collisions, as people just drove closer.  The same with antilock brakes, people think they are magic, not understanding basic physics that says my performance sports coupe can significantly out brake you massive SUV.

Google "risk homeostasis."

When an activity becomes safer (i.e., ABS braking; TKS; autopilot with GPSS; lower speedlimits; etc.), people act in a riskier manner, so that the total risk of the activity remains the same. Thus, widespread ABS brakes equals both faster driving and closer following (and the end of our insurance discount for having them). Obviously in this case, autopilot plus TKS had someone make a flight that probably would not have been attempted without them.

[Ragsf15e]

I crossed the Cascades that day too.  It wasn’t a good day to cross in a non-fiki airplane, imc, with a non (or maybe barely) current instrument pilot in a new to him airplane. The next day (or maybe 2 days later) was clear and beautiful.  I don’t think the ice or the autopilot or even his lack of currency/proficiency killed him.  I think his judgment/overconfidence killed him.  He should have sat in a hotel and waited for vfr weather.  Hindsight is 20/20, but I think he should have been able to judge that one better.