Mooney down in Washington state

[carusoam]

Nice details again 1980!

Welcome aboard 13Alpha!  (Tough first post!)

Welcome aboard Sky King!

Best Regards,

-a-

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, 13Alpha said:

Word is it was NOT the sf50 pilot. He had this Mooney and just sold it to a guy from the Midwest, hence the unchanged registration. This was the new owners flight to take it back home…beautiful weather was just two days ahead. 

Ouch.  I wonder how much of a checkout he got (or maybe he didn’t need one due to past experience)?  Was definitely tough weather to launch into in a new/unfamiliar airplane.

[shawnd]

+1 on the speculation (maybe not so much anymore) about new owner flying it back home. Heard the same from hangar neighbors at KAWO.  @13Alpha welcome - are you on the field as well?

 

Also, looks like some members of the family has responded on the thread at Kathryn's report today: Kathryn's Report: Mooney M20M Bravo, N40KA: Fatal accident occurred October 28, 2021 in Bandera, King County, Washington (kathrynsreport.com)

[carusoam]

There had to be a familiarization flight, or transition training of some form…

Too many knowledgable people involved…

 

Even if we flew several planes of the same type… last week…

Very few people would take a new to them plane into IMC without gaining experience in that hull first…

It is too easy to make a simple mistake… or have something not work as expected…

Add the possibility of icing to the equation…

There can’t be enough time to figure things out on the fly…

PP thoughts on why everyone should get proper TT, no matter what their skill level is… in a new 2U plane… not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

[DXB]

(1) unfamiliar high performance plane (2) unfamiliar panel (3) unfamiliar topography (3) IFR in IMC (4) icing conditions. 

The additive effect of these factors could saturate the cognitive bandwidth for even an experienced and capable pilot.   

I would imagine CFIT has been made less common by all the terrain awareness tools we have in the cockpit these days, but task saturation can certainly keep one from using all the resources at hand. 

My comments are still highly speculative of course at this point.

My sincere condolences to the family .

Edited November 1, 2021 by DXB

[philip_g]

I'm assuming the buyer had at least some Mooney time the way insurance is these days orbhed have had a Cfi along. Maybe he got a checkout locally and burned off the hours.

[exM20K]

12 minutes ago, philip_g said:

I'm assuming the buyer had at least some Mooney time the way insurance is these days orbhed have had a Cfi along. Maybe he got a checkout locally and burned off the hours.

Not everybody carries insurance. This one was an owie!

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/01/loss-of-control-on-ground-piper-pa-46.html

[philip_g]

22 minutes ago, exM20K said:

Not everybody carries insurance. This one was an owie!

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/01/loss-of-control-on-ground-piper-pa-46.html

Flight Time: 99 hours (Total, all aircraft), 54 hours (Total, this make and model), 65 hours (Pilot In Command, all aircraft), 57 hours (Last 90 days, all aircraft), 19 hours (Last 30 days, all aircraft), 4 hours (Last 24 hours, all aircraft)

 

 

I'd love to be there when he called for an insurance quote.

[Ragsf15e]

4 hours ago, DXB said:

(1) unfamiliar high performance plane (2) unfamiliar panel (3) unfamiliar topography (3) IFR in IMC (4) icing conditions. 

The additive effect of these factors could saturate the cognitive bandwidth for even an experienced and capable pilot.   

I would imagine CFIT has been made less common by all the terrain awareness tools we have in the cockpit these days, but task saturation can certainly keep one from using all the resources at hand. 

My comments are still highly speculative of course at this point.

My sincere condolences to the family .

And it was real windy, moderate turbulence and rain showers.  

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, philip_g said:

Flight Time: 99 hours (Total, all aircraft), 54 hours (Total, this make and model), 65 hours (Pilot In Command, all aircraft), 57 hours (Last 90 days, all aircraft), 19 hours (Last 30 days, all aircraft), 4 hours (Last 24 hours, all aircraft)

 

 

I'd love to be there when he called for an insurance quote.

WOW - that is quite stunningly the most extreme example of too much plane for a low low time pilot I ever heard of or even could imagine.

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

WOW - that is quite stunningly the most extreme example of too much plane for a low low time pilot I ever heard of or even could imagine.

It was a tall step up.  Too tall, as it turned out.  

But with 50+ hours of dual in the same airplane he had a solid introduction, I’d suggest.   

A Meridian is generally easier to fly than a Mooney, but the PA46 isn’t quite as friendly on the runway.   If you don’t center the rudder before de-rotating, the moment the nose wheel contacts pavement can become very exciting.  

[Ragsf15e]

And just to be clear, we’re talking about a different pilot in the Meridian than in the Washington crash.  We don’t know the experience of the Washington pilot yet.

[Givey]

I know the pilot and I am digging for answers. I have received more information from Mooney space than the news, thanks guys. I am not sure what I should and shouldn’t share here but he just bought the plane and was taking it to its new home. A couple of weeks ago I sat with him to talk about getting certified and this has turned me away from flying for good. I expressed to him that I was concerned that I wouldn’t handle a tough situation well. He talked about checks and systems and found comfort in them. I want to pilot in the future but not knowing if this was an unavoidable crash or not will change my outlook for sure. I would love to see more constructive talk. He was excited about the de icing features on this plane. I’ll miss you...

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Givey!

Tremendously sorry for your loss.

You can see we are all affected by this loss… without knowing the pilot at all….

 

Expect to see a continued discussion of what happened, may have happened… and could have happened….

These conversations are mostly respectful…

 

The intent of most of the speculation discussions here… are to make this situation avoidable…. Without having to give up flying. 
 

The biggest benefit of MS… is to learn everything one needs to know without having to be an experimentalist…

There are very few Bravos and other Long Body Mooneys that have been lost… (fewer of them, and high level of experience to get this far)

Our insurance guy shows us that our first year in a new (to us) plane is the most challenging…. He does a nice job of showing us using the dollars and cents method… The second year magically costs less….

Again,  Sorry for your loss.  If you have additional questions, feel free to ask….  If anyone would like to speak with a flight instructor familiar with the Bravo…. @mike_elliott is an awesome contact for people close to our lost pilot….

You can send him a private message by clicking on his highlighted name…

Best regards,

-anthony-

 

[A64Pilot]

On 10/31/2021 at 11:40 PM, carusoam said:

There had to be a familiarization flight, or transition training of some form…

 

Not necessarily, I hadn’t flown a Mooney since 1989 when I bought mine this year.

But I flew it home in daytime, CAVU weather, in Spring, and flat terrain too.

Apparently insurence only cared about time in type, not how many years had elapsed since.

[Boilermonkey]

It's hard to say if he was unfamiliar or not.  Maybe he owned one in the past, or a similar type?  It's hard to say.

Unfamiliar area, IFR, and icing even with experience is a handful. 

Moreover a new airframe to this pilot.  A lesson learned here for me would be that even if I flew the exact make and model the hour before....if I jumped into a new airframe I'm not sure I would launch straight into these conditions without a lot of pre-flight.   Again we don't know anything about what was done prior to this flight.  Was the TKS-FIKI system preflight and confirmed to be operational?   How much TKS fluid was on board?   Etc.

Even without any details about what happened, there are lessons learned from this tragedy.  

 

[aviatoreb]

13 hours ago, Givey said:

I know the pilot and I am digging for answers. I have received more information from Mooney space than the news, thanks guys. I am not sure what I should and shouldn’t share here but he just bought the plane and was taking it to its new home. A couple of weeks ago I sat with him to talk about getting certified and this has turned me away from flying for good. I expressed to him that I was concerned that I wouldn’t handle a tough situation well. He talked about checks and systems and found comfort in them. I want to pilot in the future but not knowing if this was an unavoidable crash or not will change my outlook for sure. I would love to see more constructive talk. He was excited about the de icing features on this plane. I’ll miss you...

Hi Givey, I am so sorry for your loss.  I don't want to put any blame or implication on your friend and I have no idea what happened.

I have a tks airplane and I avoid ice.  Having tks puts me a bit at ease because I am in a part of the country where ice can sometimes occur even when not forecast.  So it puts my mind at ease.  The system does work as I have, inadvertently been in light ice which is usually the most you might run across if you find ice when its not supposed to be there.  Its been several years since I have run across ice by mistake, but I run the system just in case every time I fly through a cold cloud.

I have lost friends and even more acquaintances from all sorts of things.  Flying (one), snowmobiles (one), sailing (one), driving (several), bicycles (two), canoes (one incident and I just knew of them so not really an acquaintance but almost), hunting, atv, farming, ladders, bathtubs, (ok I am stretching beyond my friend circle to people whom I knew vs just simply read about in the paper), and that's what comes to mind now.  Most of all I have lost friends who have died spontaneously from all sorts of maladies.  I don't feel like flying is particularly special in being safe or unsafe.  I do it and I enjoy it tremendously.  I take a conservative approach as much as I can and I am a reasonably experienced pilot at this stage to have an idea of the sort of gotcha's that get people and I avoid some and others I have alternatives (e.g. often ice you can fly 12 hours before or 12 hours later and find nicer weather).  There's an old saying with weather related airplane crashes.  The search and rescue is done in beautiful weather.  Of my 4 main dangerous activities, bicycles, rowing in sculls, cross country skiing, flying, I would rate them in order of danger (knock on wood) bicycles is the worst and I do a bunch of things to try and mitigate that risk.  Ride with bright blinking lights.  Carefully choosing which roads (this is a big one!).  Stay away from dusk riding which means this time of year I have mostly transitioned to riding on my indoor bike trainer since I cannot get out in time to stay in. In  bright sunshine.  In all my activities, there are things big and small that can help significantly mitigate risk.  In none of my activities, including taking a bath or shower (e.g. put some friction tape in the tub for goodness sake!), can we zero the risk.  I am at peace with my risks by taking every measure reasonable and just going from there executing my plans.  Or cancelling my plans and remaking plans on the fly depending on what is unfolding.

Edited November 2, 2021 by aviatoreb

[aviatoreb]

16 minutes ago, Boilermonkey said:

It's hard to say if he was unfamiliar or not.  Maybe he owned one in the past, or a similar type?  It's hard to say.

Unfamiliar area, IFR, and icing even with experience is a handful. 

Moreover a new airframe to this pilot.  A lesson learned here for me would be that even if I flew the exact make and model the hour before....if I jumped into a new airframe I'm not sure I would launch straight into these conditions without a lot of pre-flight.   Again we don't know anything about what was done prior to this flight.  Was the TKS-FIKI system preflight and confirmed to be operational?   How much TKS fluid was on board?   Etc.

Even without any details about what happened, there are lessons learned from this tragedy.  

 

Actually it was just yesterday I did my annual pre winter ground test (with my own eyes rather than yes it is done at annual by the shop).  I run the tks system on the ground to confirm that each and everyone of the panels wet properly.  Since a single panel can get clogged.  Yes I do run it periodically in the air but I can only see the wings whetting and I cannot see what is happening on the tail.  If say one of the tail panels is not wetting I imaging that would make for a strange flight characteristics if say one of the two tail feathers is covered in ice!  And again - I avoid ice.  I am very particular about what sort of cloud I might penetrate if we are talking below freezing.  There are all sorts of weather products to help us decide if they are likely icing clouds or not.  As for me, I don't feel that fiki or not fiki tks is a big difference since I would fly a fiki tks the same way, since these are small single engine airplanes.  If you find yourself in ice, get out asap.  Better yet, plan well and avoid ice. (spoken to the general mooney space not to you boilermonkey - Im not picking on you of course!)

[Givey]

4 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Hi Givey, I am so sorry for your loss.  I don't want to put any blame or implication on your friend and I have no idea what happened.

I have a tks airplane and I avoid ice.  Having tks puts me a bit at ease because I am in a part of the country where ice can sometimes occur even when not forecast.  So it puts my mind at ease.  The system does work as I have, inadvertently been in light ice which is usually the most you might run across if you find ice when its not supposed to be there.  Its been several years since I have run across ice by mistake, but I run the system just in case every time I fly through a cold cloud.

I have lost friends and even more acquaintances from all sorts of things.  Flying (one), snowmobiles (one), sailing (one), driving (several), bicycles (two), canoes (one incident and I just knew of them so not really an acquaintance but almost), hunting, atv, farming, ladders, bathtubs, (ok I am stretching beyond my friend circle to people whom I knew vs just simply read about in the paper), and that's what comes to mind now.  Most of all I have lost friends who have died spontaneously from all sorts of maladies.  I don't feel like flying is particularly special in being safe or unsafe.  I do it and I enjoy it tremendously.  I take a conservative approach as much as I can and I am a reasonably experienced pilot at this stage to have an idea of the sort of gotcha's that get people and I avoid some and others I have alternatives (e.g. often ice you can fly 12 hours before or 12 hours later and find nicer weather).  There's an old saying with weather related airplane crashes.  The search and rescue is done in beautiful weather.  Of my 4 main dangerous activities, bicycles, rowing in sculls, cross country skiing, flying, I would rate them in order of danger (knock on wood) bicycles is the worst and I do a bunch of things to try and mitigate that risk.  Ride with bright blinking lights.  Carefully choosing which roads (this is a big one!).  Stay away from dusk riding which means this time of year I have mostly transitioned to riding on my indoor bike trainer since I cannot get out in time to stay in. In  bright sunshine.  In all my activities, there are things big and small that can help significantly mitigate risk.  In none of my activities, including taking a bath or shower (e.g. but some friction tape in the tub for goodness sake!), can we zero the risk.  I am at peace with my risks by taking every measure reasonable and just going from there executing my plans.  Or cancelling my plans and remaking plans on the fly depending on what is unfolding.

This is great advice! I feel like the risks we take in cars is greater but has become more of a necessary risk. Mitigation is key though. Thanks.

[MIm20c]

On 10/29/2021 at 9:41 PM, milotron said:

On the downward facing prop you can see the rubber spreader. Probably TKS prop.

I cancelled a flight and drove on Tuesday heading up to northern Vancouver Island. Similar weather and reports. Too many icicles showing up in Foreflight for my comfort.

Very sad to read about.

I’ve noticed a number of Mooney aircraft with a heated prop that add inadvertent tks.  A few replace with the slinger, some keep both, but a fair amount keep only the heated prop for protection. Looking at the picture I see the smooth boot of a heated prop not the grooved TKS version. 

[aviatoreb]

21 minutes ago, Givey said:

This is great advice! I feel like the risks we take in cars is greater but has become more of a necessary risk. Mitigation is key though. Thanks.

My pleasure givey.

One more comment if I might - I think in aviation we actually teach (we are taught) risk management as one of the processes of considering flights, proceeding with flights etc.  And this education has changed how I approach everything.  As I said, cars are dangerous - we all know!  But with my aviation approach to risk management, I drive in a way that has changed because of aviation.  Examples, I live in a part of the country that snows a lot.  So sometimes I am checking weather and routes before doing a drive.  I am perfectly happy diverting if I don't like the driving weather (you should see the snow squalls down by Watertown sometimes!) and I know how to evaluate weather that way.  I drive an all wheel drive and I am one of the rare people around here that also has studded snow tires on my all wheel drive.  I consider this to be behavior that I have learned from flying that I have ported over to driving.  Choosing my quiver of equipment is one of those behaviors.  I like to think that because of flying, my over all total risk including risk across all of my activities is lowered because I have learned what I think is a healthy approach to risk management.  And as I said, I know I cannot zero risk, but I am mentally at peace knowing I am doing what I can.  My wife phones me often (last week example when driving back from Rhode Island) and she asks for a weather briefing!  Which I enjoy doing.  And we discuss how difficult the drive might be.  By the way, very sad story. I learned when checking up on my current airplane I have owned for 12 years, I was calling a shop that had taken care of it for years to discuss the maintenance, when I was in process of buying it 12 years ago.  I learned that a previous owner who had owned it for like 20 years died in a car-pedestrian accident.  he had stepped out of his car on a busy street without looking properly and he was hit by a car!  How awful.  Anyway, because of that, I am always ever more so checking my rear view mirror when I am stepping out of my car after parallel parking - and I taught my sons diligently to do the same thing.  So knock on wood - maybe that one little behavior alone will save me from something awful and I have airplane ownership to thank for that one, in a strange circuitous route for that education on that one tip.  So friends - careful getting out of your cars!

[donkaye]

Sometimes NOT having TKS is a blessing.  It makes the decision making process easier.  You clearly just don't go.  Also, even if you are an airline pilot, transition training is a must.  Without judging too much at this stage, looking at the flightaware track overlaying the weather, and in view of the pireps, I think prudence would indicate it would have been best to stay on the ground wishing you were in the air than vice versa.  

The Bravo is a great airplane, but at 3,368 pounds gross weight, it is but a feather in weather that Mother Nature can throw at us.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Givey said:

This is great advice! I feel like the risks we take in cars is greater but has become more of a necessary risk. Mitigation is key though. Thanks.

Very sorry for your loss.

We would still be speculating for sure, but these are questions we’d all ask if you ever wanted to share…

Was there a prepurchase inspection on the airplane?

What was the pilots experience level and certification in total and in this type?

What did he do for a checkout in this particular airframe?

Do you have pictures of the inside instrument panel, maybe from an advertisement?

How often was the airplane flown in the last few years?

Again, it will just lead to more speculation, but those are things that people will wonder about.

Again sorry for your loss.  Aviation can be safe and it’s very rewarding.  We just need to set good limits like @aviatoreb said above.

[A64Pilot]

21 hours ago, exM20K said:

Not everybody carries insurance. This one was an owie!

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/01/loss-of-control-on-ground-piper-pa-46.html

I just looked at the report, has anyone seen the inside of a turbines exhaust stack be perfectly clean? I never have, and yet this one seems to be.

Is that some kind of photo effect?

[ilovecornfields]

41 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Sometimes NOT having TKS is a blessing.  It makes the decision making process easier.  You clearly just don't go.  Also, even if you are an airline pilot, transition training is a must.  Without judging too much at this stage, looking at the flightaware track overlaying the weather, and in view of the pireps, I think prudence would indicate it would have been best to stay on the ground wishing you were in the air than vice versa.  

The Bravo is a great airplane, but at 3,368 pounds gross weight, it is but a feather in weather that Mother Nature can throw at us.

Isn’t that like saying anti-lock brakes, airbags and instrument ratings are dangerous because they encourage you to take risks you otherwise wouldn’t?

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the equipment, it’s the decision-making that’s at fault as@aviatoreb eloquently pointed out. We both have very capable TKS airplanes and fly them like we have no ice protection. Maybe it’s a waste, but I feel more comfortable knowing I have another backup if I inadvertently find myself in an unexpected dangerous situation. We’ve both also make the same comment about CAPS and the utility of having another tool at your disposal when things unexpectedly go south.