Landing trim

[Brandt]

Have read several times the suggestion that full nose up trim in the flare is a technique some use.  Having just read the accident report on a crash due to full nose up trim on takeoff, it would seem that this technique could be a recipe for disaster in a go around situation.  Am I off base here?

[Planegary]

No, you are not. I just had a friend killed due to trim not set after landing into the proper position. His fault i know but the trim issue still tells us we wont be able to overcome the trim in that setting. Why not go out and climb to altitude ,slow the plane down and trim it up like that then try a approach stall and a go around? this would tell you if you have the strength to overcome it in a real event close to the ground. The company I work for almost had an accident because a pilot that came to us from another company normally landed with trim. that person had an issue and the only thing that kept the plane from being a smoking hole in the ground was the captain was an aerobatic pilot and it was a clear day

[mike_elliott]

Brandt, on your ultra with just you in it, you will find the trim indicator will be about 2/3 way up when properly trimmed for landing. Even at this setting, Full up is a bit too much and additional nose attitude can be simply added with slight back pressure as you near a 0/ft/min sink in ground effect. With full flaps on a bounce, adding full power will cause the nose to point to the sky and you must be prepped for this event and begin mitigation immediately, along with a healthy heap of right rudder to keep the P factor from dinging the pilots' side wing onto the runway. Kevin and I both recommend keeping your thumb on the trim during the round out ready to do what is necessary. If you ever forget to set flaps to TO or less when you take off, you will be in for whole bunch of immediate work to keep it from being a ball of metal. Always check this right before you enter a runway.

Come on down to the great state of FL this winter and we can work some on this fine tuning!

[midlifeflyer]

Some instructors will include a simulated full back trim go-around at altitude as part of transition training. Even the normal process  of trimming for landing can result in a high pitch/high force go-around. Pilots need to know what those forces are and be prepared for them

[GeeBee]

One of my routines is always return the stab trim to TO range on the after landing check. However, I have painted a small "index" marks on the stab and fuselage that I check on preflight to insure the stab is at the TO setting. That does two things, insures the stab is TO in case I miss it on the Before TO check and verifies the electronic indication on the panel is correct when I power up to start. As to go-around you always have to be prepared for heavy stick forces. Mike_elliott's routine is very sound advice.

There was a plane crash of a Cessna TP-210 at PDK last Friday that looks suspiciously like a mis set trim on TO. Plane went straight up, stalled and went over on a wing. Killed 4. The 210 has some of the strongest stick forces around, especially mis-trimmed.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/10/cessna-p210n-pressurized-centurion.html

[Brandt]

Brandt, on your ultra with just you in it, you will find the trim indicator will be about 2/3 way up when properly trimmed for landing. Even at this setting, Full up is a bit too much and additional nose attitude can be simply added with slight back pressure as you near a 0/ft/min sink in ground effect. With full flaps on a bounce, adding full power will cause the nose to point to the sky and you must be prepped for this event and begin mitigation immediately, along with a healthy heap of right rudder to keep the P factor from dinging the pilots' side wing onto the runway. Kevin and I both recommend keeping your thumb on the trim during the round out ready to do what is necessary. If you ever forget to set flaps to TO or less when you take off, you will be in for whole bunch of immediate work to keep it from being a ball of metal. Always check this right before you enter a runway.
Come on down to the great state of FL this winter and we can work some on this fine tuning!

Thanks, Mike. I’ve never used full up trim and don’t plan to do so. And have done go arounds, so I am familiar with the pressures. I almost alway land with T/O flaps only.  Was just curious about others. 

[steingar]

I use whatever trim I need to keep the nose up on landing.  I have forgotten to redo the trim on takeoff, and it does get your attention.  But I can push the nose down until I correct the trim, and I have the physique of a teenage girl.  The out of trim situation wasn't the cause of the crash, poor airmanship was.

[Hank]

32 minutes ago, steingar said:

I use whatever trim I need to keep the nose up on landing.  I have forgotten to redo the trim on takeoff, and it does get your attention.  But I can push the nose down until I correct the trim, and I have the physique of a teenage girl.  The out of trim situation wasn't the cause of the crash, poor airmanship was.

That's because you fly the mighty 180hp C model like me. The OP, @Brandt, has an Acclaim Ultra with almost double the hp.

[A64Pilot]

I’ve not flown them all. but am certain that an average person can overcome the excessive force, IF they are prepared for it, and have experienced it so they recognize what’s going on.

I believe accidents occur when someone isn’t prepared for it and by the time they take corrective action, it may be too late. 

However it’s my opinion that everyone ought to go out and ease into it and see for themselves how bad it is, because if you fly enough it’s eventually going to happen to you, maybe the electric trim relay or switch sticks, or you just mess up and forgot it’s trimmed full up or whatever.

The first time you do something ought not be the time when doing it correctly is the difference in being killed or not. Just ease into it slowly at altitude, it’s not a timed event.

Having said all of that, there is just no good reason to trim full up, not being trimmed full up helps keep the aircraft from ballooning right after landing too.

Edited October 11, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Utah20Gflyer]

Seems very model dependent.  I think with the older lower powered Mooney's the trim required is just not enough to create a really dangerous situation.  If I go around and firewall the throttle it just requires some moderate forward pressure on the yoke and it's good.   Generally I only land with takeoff flaps and so in a go around I just give the trim a couple quick spins and I'm back to takeoff trim.  Good to go.

I have no experience with them but it seems the long body Mooney's with the heavier engine up front and significant increase in HP is what created the danger.   Requiring more aft trim in landing trim but also with the power to rocket the nose up if you punch the throttle.  My O 360 doesn't have the weight and power to create that situation. 

[Browncbr1]

I like the feel of takeoff trim for landing..   on short final I glance to confirm it’s about TO trim.  If I’m doing a short soft field landing behind the power curve, it’s full up trim, but that’s almost never what I need.   I’m usually loaded up with people and bags though

[carusoam]

There are old wives tails that will never die…

You may hear… “you can’t get enough trim in a Mooney…”

That may be true some days… it definitely won’t be true on all days… with all payloads…

 

It is simple logic used to hassle simple people…

 

Solution… don’t be simple…

For proof… (a cognitive experiment… no flying needed or recommended)

At altitude, set up for a landing configuration… trim, then add power in… slowly add power in…

If you use full up trim, and full power… you are going to get a full chest press work out… 

 

Very often around here… people are discussing the go-around… when and how often they get practiced or used…

There is a similar discussion going on currently….

PP thoughts only, not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-