Buying a "rebuilt" aircraft?

[redbaron1982]

I'm searching a M20J or M20K, and today I came across a very nice M20J (https://www.barnstormers.com/classified-1678485-1978-Mooney-M20J-201-IFR.html). 

Or at least I thought it was, I was ready to pull the trigger on it (aka purchase agreement) but then I found this: https://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/shop-project and this https://www.planecrashmap.com/plane/nj/N301KC/

The airplane suffered and off airport landing shortly after take off in 2008, hitting some trees. After that, it was rebuilt (replaced the wings with a M20K wings).

First of all, isn't it not very transparent for someone to publish an airplane for sale and not mentioning that it was in crash with subtantial damage?

Second, isn't it asking a lot 135kUSD for an airplane that went through such accident?

Last, but not least, is it safe to buy such an airplane? I mean, on the bright side it was fully "inspected" for corrosion in 2008, as it was taken completely appart, but again, it is an aircraft that was completely taken apart and put back together by a shop and not mooney itself.

[EricJ]

It looks pretty clean in the pics.   If it was properly repaired and has been flown and maintained it shouldn't be too much of an issue safety-wise.   Whether it affects the value or not is between you and the seller.  

Most old airplanes have damage history by now.   I'd make sure the 337s document everything properly, especially if it got a different wing, but I don't think any of it is show-stopper stuff.

 

[DCarlton]

10 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

I'm searching a M20J or M20K, and today I came across a very nice M20J (https://www.barnstormers.com/classified-1678485-1978-Mooney-M20J-201-IFR.html). 

Or at least I thought it was, I was ready to pull the trigger on it (aka purchase agreement) but then I found this: https://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/shop-project and this https://www.planecrashmap.com/plane/nj/N301KC/

The airplane suffered and off airport landing shortly after take off in 2008, hitting some trees. After that, it was rebuilt (replaced the wings with a M20K wings).

First of all, isn't it not very transparent for someone to publish an airplane for sale and not mentioning that it was in crash with subtantial damage?

Second, isn't it asking a lot 135kUSD for an airplane that went through such accident?

Last, but not least, is it safe to buy such an airplane? I mean, on the bright side it was fully "inspected" for corrosion in 2008, as it was taken completely appart, but again, it is an aircraft that was completely taken apart and put back together by a shop and not mooney itself.

A J caught my eye a few months back.  The outer wing assembly had been reportedly replaced with factory parts due to a ground accident.  I pulled drawings and tried to imagine how a repair facility could remove and replace the entire outer wing assembly.  Had I lived closer, I would have asked to speak to the owner about the accident and the repair process.  Repair photos would have helped me make a decision.  Without more information, I couldn't pursue it.  Agree damage history needs to be disclosed early to gain trust.  I'm not a mechanic; just a pilot and Mooney owner looking towards an upgrade down the road. 

[toto]

6 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

I'm searching a M20J or M20K, and today I came across a very nice M20J (https://www.barnstormers.com/classified-1678485-1978-Mooney-M20J-201-IFR.html). 

Or at least I thought it was, I was ready to pull the trigger on it (aka purchase agreement) but then I found this: https://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/shop-project and this https://www.planecrashmap.com/plane/nj/N301KC/

The airplane suffered and off airport landing shortly after take off in 2008, hitting some trees. After that, it was rebuilt (replaced the wings with a M20K wings).

First of all, isn't it not very transparent for someone to publish an airplane for sale and not mentioning that it was in crash with subtantial damage?

Second, isn't it asking a lot 135kUSD for an airplane that went through such accident?

Last, but not least, is it safe to buy such an airplane? I mean, on the bright side it was fully "inspected" for corrosion in 2008, as it was taken completely appart, but again, it is an aircraft that was completely taken apart and put back together by a shop and not mooney itself.

I suspect the current owner bought it as a “better than new” aircraft, and discounted the prior damage. 

The Air Mods site is fantastic, really refreshing transparency. With this info, you’d probably be better informed than almost any other aircraft buyer

 

[David Lloyd]

If you believe the owner was purposely misleading, that you would not find any reference to damage repair in the logbooks, walk away.  Today, everyone inspects logbooks at the very least.  Were the repairs in the book?  Were 337s filled out?  Many people pay to have a pre purchase inspection done to find all the little things.  This was big, you should ask early if there is a damage history.  If you won't accept a repair, walk.  The Air Mod repair pictures showed an incredible amount of work, done properly.  Done properly should not discount the price.

[Rusty Pilot]

Airmods has a great reputation for quality work.  The price seems to reflect the damage history and looks to be a good deal.  Recent flight history and a good pre-buy inspection should flag any issues.  As others have said, aircraft of this age frequently have damage history which can be a non issue if repaired properly.  Good luck finding the right aircraft for you.

[N9405V]

At first blush it doesn’t look like they tried to hide the work that was done. You don’t lead a sales ad with the warts and the ad doesn’t say “no damage history”. Personally I don’t care if a plane has damage history or not. As long as it was repaired by a reputable shop and has some flying time since the repair I am not concerned. Mooney’s are really modular and the fuselage and wing are built as two separate components and the mated together. Just look at the logs and the documentation.


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[GeeBee]

A really good article in AVweb today on used aircraft purchasing. It should be made a "sticky" here.

 

https://www.avweb.com/ownership/purchasing/buying-selling-protect-yourself/?MailingID=712&utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Newest+King+Airs+Receive+EASA+Certification%2C+United%2C+Honeywell+Announce+New+SAF+Investment&utm_campaign=Newest+King+Airs+Receive+EASA+Certification%2C+United%2C+Honeywell+Announce+New+SAF+Investment+-+Friday%2C+September+10%2C+2021

[A64Pilot]

21 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

A really good article in AVweb today on used aircraft purchasing. It should be made a "sticky" here.

 

https://www.avweb.com/ownership/purchasing/buying-selling-protect-yourself/?MailingID=712&utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Newest+King+Airs+Receive+EASA+Certification%2C+United%2C+Honeywell+Announce+New+SAF+Investment&utm_campaign=Newest+King+Airs+Receive+EASA+Certification%2C+United%2C+Honeywell+Announce+New+SAF+Investment+-+Friday%2C+September+10%2C+2021

There is  a whole lot in that article I agree with, and not much I don’t.

For instance I prefer an overhauled engine from a reputable shop with a few hundred hours on it as opposed to one close to being run out, the reason is it seems you don’t get discounted much if any for high time, at least that’s what I was seeing when I was shopping 6 months or so ago. Now if I could get an airplane discounted by the price of an overhaul. of course I’d go that way.

I told my Brother years ago that there was something he needed to understand, Used car sales people are pretty much crooks. but used cars are nickel / dime, the real Pro’s graduate to aircraft sales as there is a whole lot more money there.

Not all are of course. but it’s not a bad idea to view a sales organizations as a bunch of crooks. “Trust but verify”

People are apparently allowed to remove parts of the logbook they don’t like that are over a year old, but they can’t 337’s, they are on file with the FAA, so get a copy and have whomever is performing the pre-buy to look specifically for structural damage repairs that aren’t covered by a 337, if you find any, walk away, undocumented work is undocumented for a reason, none of them good.

 

Final statement there are many, many people who rebuild airplanes, and many are actually better than factory built. In my neighborhood one guy would fly a Beaver down from Ak every year and go through it, take it back to Ak in spring and sell it.

‘Currently there is a Gentleman from Maine who builds a Supercub every year,and again it’s level of quality exceeds what came out of the factory.

Want a Maule? Contact this guy, one he builds or rebuilds I guarantee will be much better fit and finish than the factory.

http://www.wrightaircrafttechnology.com/home

 

”damage history” airplanes professionally repaired can be great bargains, just be aware that the history does devalue the airplane, so don’t overpay.

[A64Pilot]

You know it seems the price from Airmods was $79,000

https://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/shop-project

However it’s now $135,000?

https://www.barnstormers.com/classified-1678485-1978-Mooney-M20J-201-IFR.html

If that’s correct and assuming there isn’t a new motor and avionics etc, that seems to be a heck of a mark up?

[Hank]

11 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

You know it seems the price from Airmods was $79,000

https://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/shop-project

However it’s now $135,000?

https://www.barnstormers.com/classified-1678485-1978-Mooney-M20J-201-IFR.html

If that’s correct and assuming there isn’t a new motor and avionics etc, that seems to be a heck of a mark up?

The test flight was on Friday, Oct. 28th. The last time 10/28 was on Friday was in 2016, but judging from the other dates shown on the linked article, it was most likely Friday,  October 28, 2011.

So the markup is over a ten year period. What improvements were made? Hours flown? Etc., etc. Likely reasonable, possibly not. The devil is in the details, as always.

[redbaron1982]

Regarding the price increase, the avionics were upgraded significantly (for instance to G5 were added, or an old transponder replaced by a garmin). Also the autopilot was upgraded. So I think the price difference is reasonable. And we have 10 years of inflation in the middle. At 2% anual, it is 22% in 10 years.

[thinwing]

regarding prebuys,what is a reasonable distance for the seller to transport the aircraft?On Beechtalk.there is a comment about a buyer wanting a shop 3 hours away and the seller stating.."if i did that and seller opted out at prebuy,I would be out and entire day ,plus 6 hours wear and tear plus cost of fuel"Should the buyer or seller pay for this?

[GeeBee]

Generally 1 hour flying time is considered fair. 

[carusoam]

AirMods is a NJ MSC…

They always have had an extra Mooney in the shop for workload balancing…

They also have a trailer in the back for off-field landings recovery…

Sooo…. If you are going to intentionally purchase a Franken-Mooney… this shop has the skills to build one properly.

There will always be a challenge putting a value on the plane when it comes time to sell… the PPI will probably be very extensive… and buyers will seek other planes prior to settling on a Franken…

 

Expect all costs of purchasing an aircraft belong to the buyer…

Buyers want many things to occur in a timely fashion…

If the seller helps with the process…  that is a great bonus.  

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy…

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

2 hours ago, thinwing said:

regarding prebuys,what is a reasonable distance for the seller to transport the aircraft?On Beechtalk.there is a comment about a buyer wanting a shop 3 hours away and the seller stating.."if i did that and seller opted out at prebuy,I would be out and entire day ,plus 6 hours wear and tear plus cost of fuel"Should the buyer or seller pay for this?

The buyer is on the hook for the expenses either by moving the airplane to the maintainer or the maintainer to the plane and returning either to their respective homes.  If moving the airplane it should include return fuel, pilot time, hotel etc. should the deal die.

Clarence

[thinwing]

thanks Clarence...that seems fair,I was however reading opinions written by some buyers ,who held the opposite view...and thought well of course they would say that!Some even thought seller should bare the cost of a prepurchase and an annual!....I could only think..it takes all kinds!

[jaylw314]

33 minutes ago, thinwing said:

thanks Clarence...that seems fair,I was however reading opinions written by some buyers ,who held the opposite view...and thought well of course they would say that!Some even thought seller should bare the cost of a prepurchase and an annual!....I could only think..it takes all kinds!

Technically, a private owner can't be paid for flying the plane out somewhere, but most private owners probably wouldn't let you pay a ferry pilot to fly it out.  Paying for the owner's airline flights and lost time/wages is fair game, though, as would be paying the mechanic both ways.  Given the current seller's market, it's hard to imagine that people opining the seller should bear the costs are correct.

[toto]

35 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Technically, a private owner can't be paid for flying the plane out somewhere, but most private owners probably wouldn't let you pay a ferry pilot to fly it out.  Paying for the owner's airline flights and lost time/wages is fair game, though, as would be paying the mechanic both ways.  Given the current seller's market, it's hard to imagine that people opining the seller should bear the costs are correct.

Why would the seller object to letting the buyer pay for a ferry flight?  This should be well within the limitations of part 119. 

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, toto said:

Why would the seller object to letting the buyer pay for a ferry flight?  This should be well within the limitations of part 119. 

Would you feel great about giving some person somebody else paid the keys to your plane and letting him fly it somewhere for somebody else's benefit?  I mean, as an owner, if I paid someone to ferry my plane, at least I know I'm the one paying him, so he's accountable to me because I'm his client, and I've probably been motivated to vette him to my satisfaction.

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, toto said:

Why would the seller object to letting the buyer pay for a ferry flight?  This should be well within the limitations of part 119. 

I’ve not bought a great many aircraft, but the times I have, I’ve always flown or driven to where the airplane is, and brought a technical expert if needed, and arranged for a hanger to do the inspection.

It’s my opinion that within a short amount of time, an expert can determine if you have found a jewel or a pig, if a pig then of course you thank the seller, and it’s your responsibility to return the aircraft to the condition he delivered it in, meaning of course a properly licensed individual puts it back together, and makes any logbook entries as required.

 

Its a sellers market for everything, there is some kind of psychology of shortages and prices are jacked up because of it, everything is overpriced.

This won’t last, it never does and if anything the longer it does, the greater the fall will be. Rent an aircraft until then as soon there will be bargains again as when the economy drops all “toys” become available at a discount. whether they be boats, cars vacation houses whatever.

‘If your like me you have waited years until you could have your own airplane, what’s another year?

Edited September 11, 2021 by A64Pilot

[toto]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

Would you feel great about giving some person somebody else paid the keys to your plane and letting him fly it somewhere for somebody else's benefit?  I mean, as an owner, if I paid someone to ferry my plane, at least I know I'm the one paying him, so he's accountable to me because I'm his client, and I've probably been motivated to vette him to my satisfaction.

Well when you say it like that, it sounds weird, but I’ve been on the buying side of this. The seller picked a very familiar CFI from his local FBO who had a lot of experience in the airplane. I paid the CFI for the ferry, and then I gave him a ride back in my plane. The owner never gave the keys to a stranger, and he paid zero dollars for the ferry. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I’ve not bought a great many aircraft, but the times I have, I’ve always flown or driven to where the airplane is, and brought a technical expert if needed, and arranged for a hanger to do the inspection.

It’s my opinion that within a short amount of time, an expert can determine if you have found a jewel or a pig, if a pig then of course you thank the seller, and it’s your responsibility to return the aircraft to the condition he delivered it in, meaning of course a properly licensed individual puts it back together, and makes any logbook entries as required.

 

Its a sellers market for everything, there is some kind of psychology of shortages and prices are jacked up because of it, everything is overpriced.

This won’t last, it never does and if anything the longer it does, the greater the fall will be. Rent an aircraft until then as soon there will be bargains again as when the economy drops all “toys” become available at a discount. whether they be boats, cars vacation houses whatever.

‘If your like me you have waited years until you could have your own airplane, what’s another year?

You bring up an interesting point regarding the log entry afterward which I believe is correct.  Maintenance was completed on the plane it should be logged.  Many here say no way.

Imagine the inspection reveals an oil filter full of metal, the buyer passes on the purchase, the maintainer installs a new filter and closes up the plane.  The next buyer opens the filter to find it spotless, buys the plane and at his first oil change finds it full of metal, basically screwed by lack of a log entry.

Clarence

[EricJ]

5 hours ago, M20Doc said:

You bring up an interesting point regarding the log entry afterward which I believe is correct.  Maintenance was completed on the plane it should be logged.  Many here say no way.

Imagine the inspection reveals an oil filter full of metal, the buyer passes on the purchase, the maintainer installs a new filter and closes up the plane.  The next buyer opens the filter to find it spotless, buys the plane and at his first oil change finds it full of metal, basically screwed by lack of a log entry.

Clarence

I think it depends on whether "maintenance" was done.   If only inspection was done, no entry is required, but if any "maintenance" was done then a log entry is required.   I'd call replacing the filter maintenance, but taking inspection plates off and putting them back on wouldn't be.   ymmv. 

[A64Pilot]

I know this probably goes back to Military rules, but anything that renders an aircraft unsafe to fly, ought to be recorded (in my opinion) that can be as simple a thing as draining the oil or removing the spark plugs, or removing structural panels. 

I think people ought to record removal of spark plugs for the purpose of a compression check for example, and I go so far as to include in the entry the torque they are tightened to, and the engine was run up. Oil change for example I run the engine and check for leaks and record that. 

But I know often it’s not done.

In my opinion a log book ought to have pretty frequent entries of things like vacuum filters being changed and plugs cleaned and rotated, oil changes, Mag timing etc etc.

One that is pretty devoid of entries except Annual’s is suspect to me.