Looks like a Mooney tubular airframe save.

[Yetti]

Looks like long road of recovery for occupants  

 

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/03/mooney-m20b-mark-21-n74786-accident.html

[EricJ]

Ouch.   Night-time off-airport landing in rough terrain.   Cabin integrity largely intact.   I hope those guys recover fully.

 

[carusoam]

Let’s invite @mike_elliott to the thread...(Engine out, night, two survivors...)

Best regards,

-a-

[MooneyMitch]

Hoping two of America’s finest fully recovery quickly. 

[carusoam]

Too many assumptions being made...

Hold your fire...

Add your speculation to the Kathryn’s report...

Of course, if you know some facts... that would be great...

It was a real accident involving real people...

Best regards,

-a-

[irishpilot]

All, please let's hold speculative talk until we have the preliminary NTSB report. The purpose of the Safety section is to set an objective safety culture that allows us to learn from Mooney accidents in hopes of raising our awareness and safety. 

[A64Pilot]

12 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I suspect both occupants and their families wished that they were in a plane with CAPS or BRS.  They would have walked out instead of being carried.  

Looks like maybe CFIT to me, and if so how would a chute have helped?

These two were very good friends of mine, in a CAPS equipped airplane. I feel sure they got into inadvertent IMC and didnt handle it too well even though between the two of them they probably had 20,000 hours and both were Commercial Instrument.

‘CAPS has very limited envelope. I believe that for example normal cruise speed is above its deployment envelope, or have I been told an untruth?

 

[EricJ]

16 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

I have seen certified deployment speeds of 140 knots - not sure what happens if you are faster.  Their Vision Jet is equipped with CAPS so there is likelihood it will be deployed at higher speeds.

But you are right, CAPS has a limited envelope......just like seat belts. 

Flying Magazine says GA aircraft seat belt's only need to be certified to 9 G's.  Crashing CFIT at or above 140 knots is probably close to 100 G's.  And if so how would seat belts help either.  Perhaps we should question the value of all safety devices.

Restrain Yourself: Inexpensive Restraint System Options | Flying (flyingmag.com)

Safety systems for cars, especially in a racing environment, has evolved a lot in the last three decades or so.  One of the things we've learned in racing is that if you want any of it to work you have to look at all of it together as a system.   This means everything touching you and around you is part of the system for absorbing energy and spreading impulse forces out over time.   This is why car accidents are a lot more survivable now, since the entire chassis is designed as a crush structure to absorb energy, seat designs have changed a lot, all of the systems work togethers, etc., etc.   Fatalities in pro racing are pretty rare these days, and they don't use airbags at all.   

Our airplanes were designed long before this sort of approach to safety was developed, and I'm not sure even the most modern GA airplanes utilize much of the design philosophy that's common in similar industries now.  

[A64Pilot]

How would you like or have been this guy?

https://www.ainonline.com/sites/default/files/podcast-files/2017-07-ain-human-factor-ntsb-aviation-incident-final-report_0.pdf

CAPS I see as being most useful for the guy who runs out of gas and doesn’t want to try a forced landing or other similar thing where you have control and can plan it. 

 

[carusoam]

Gents,

The topic of this thread is a terrible accident...

Involving real people...

It is tradition on MS to demonstrate a higher than normal respect for staying on topic until the situation comes to a conclusion...

When the close friends and family search the internet... they will be visiting here.

It won’t send the proper message that their loved ones should have done something different...

We don’t have the facts yet... not even a preliminary report.

 

@1980Mooney in case you don’t read threads before responding... you are typing in the Safety Section... and have been advised by the ‘owner’ of the section...

On 3/25/2021 at 11:26 PM, irishpilot said:

All, please let's hold speculative talk until we have the preliminary NTSB report. The purpose of the Safety section is to set an objective safety culture that allows us to learn from Mooney accidents in hopes of raising our awareness and safety. 

PP thoughts only, still working on my typing skills...

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

Oh my gosh - what a terrible accident.  A lot of things went right given the bad situation of a crash at night into tough terrain.   No fire.  Thank goodness.  The airframe around them stayed mostly in track despite the tell tail of a very very violent impact.  Thank goodness.  It was close enough to help that help was upon them quickly enough.  Thank goodness!  Let's hope these guys pull through and recover fully.

[Yetti]

From another line.   The plane may have lacked shoulder harnesses.    Yes they are expensive.  But go ahead and install shoulder harnesses if you have not.

[mike_elliott]

If anyone knows the pilot's contact info, please forward to me so that we can engage the Bill Gilliland foundation of the Mooney Summit, Inc.

Thanks

PS for those of you without shoulder belts in your vintage Mooney's, please consider them. I am alive because of them, and will not fly or instruct in a plane without them, nor will any of the Mooney Pros, Inc. instructors.

[Hank]

That's why I like my Carb Temp gage, right beside the old Turn Coordinator, and the orange "danger zone" stripe is easy to see.

And I'm a big fan of our steel cage, too!

But in-flight icing???? No thank you!!

[Fly Boomer]

18 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Final is out.  See NTSB Carol.  N74786.  M20B.  Pilot Error - carburetor icing.  Plane was in light rime ice and climbing in clouds from 8,000 to 14,000.  Carb heat was off in climb.  Not a threat here to most here that likely have fuel injection.  

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/102801/pdf

Accident Mooney M20B Mark 21 N74786, 24 Mar 2021 (aviation-safety.net)

Didn't realize that was a thing.  Way back in my Cessna 150 days, I only used carb heat when I pulled the throttle back.

[Pinecone]

It depends on the engine and the installation.  Piper Cherokees seem to not have issues.  Continental powered Cessna 182s are very prone to it.  Cessna 172 seem to be in the middle.  

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Didn't realize that was a thing.  Way back in my Cessna 150 days, I only used carb heat when I pulled the throttle back.

I pulled partial Carb Heat twice during IFR training in WV winter [until the Carb Temp needle was out of the orange stripe], but in 15+ years of ownership have never had carb ice develop. And I do not use it on landing.

[A64Pilot]

Different engines are different as far as making ice, the little Continentals from A-65 to O-200’s are known as “ice machines”

I’ve had my C-85 make ice on a 75 degree day in clear air.

I’ve always been cautioned against partial carb heat, always been told full on or full off, unsure why?

Can a Mooney climb to 14,000 with carb heat on? Everything I’ve flown carb heat really reduces power.

I use it on every landing, but you need to get it in early.

‘Friend was sling loading some kind of commo gear off a mountain with a Bell 47, when he pulled carb heat on short final the engine quit when he pulled collective, figured since he was in a pretty steep descent pretty much an autorotation that the muffler had cooled so much that carb heat didn't work, so I now pull carb heat on turning base on my 140 instead of on final as I’m pretty much at idle usually by final.

[Hank]

On 4/21/2023 at 9:05 AM, A64Pilot said:

I’ve always been cautioned against partial carb heat, always been told full on or full off, unsure why?

Because you don't want the ice to melt, flow back into the carb and refreeze where you can't make it melt.

Partial carb heat is okay ONLY IF you have a Carb Temp Gage and assure your carb temp holds at 40°F or higher. No gage means Full Carb Heat.