Ovation musings

[Hilbilly]

Whilst looking at the Ovation in Canada, this FIKI model was listed yesterday.

My thoughts:

Looking at the logs, it has not flown in ?3 years, last annual seems 2017 low total time which is a bit of a negative. So it will need a pre-purchase/annual done with a microscope by an expert shop. Thanks for the AGL recommendation I will phone them tomorrow. The current owner is a A&P and did the maintenance...

Non WAAS GPS, not the biggest deal as I would likely get a 750txi installed. ?$15K after 530 rebate.

ADSB required. ?$7k if the 430 is replaced with a GNX 375.

280hp still, the STC is ?$5K but is it still available. Can the current prop suffice for the upgrade or will it need to be changed (McCauley 2A34C241)

Its a hangar queen but with a decent annual/prebuy at AGL this could be a great plane in my opinion.

Thoughts?

 

 

 

[carusoam]

Flown often is a good idea...  especially if it is an IO360...

Thorough PPI is a really good idea for something that hasn’t moved in three years... 

Review what gets covered in the PPI... including the FIkI system...

a basic PPI might not review all the expensive add one this plane may have...

 

Going up to the 310hp engine... Still very possible... a few details, a TopProp, and an STC available through Mooney...

The expensive part is the prop...

Either way... When you go 310hp... the T/O and climb performance is worth the extra dollars...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hilbilly]

I will need to overhaul the prop to get it into Canada (10 year mandatory overhaul for us).

Not sure what TopProp is will read up on it, is that a different prop?

My limited understanding is that the 310hp STC needs a STC, governor adjustment to 2700 rpm and ?compatible prop, this one has the McCauley 2A34C241.

[StevenL757]

11 minutes ago, Hilbilly said:

Whilst looking at the Ovation in Canada, this FIKI model was listed yesterday.

My thoughts:

Looking at the logs, it has not flown in ?3 years, last annual seems 2017 low total time which is a bit of a negative. So it will need a pre-purchase/annual done with a microscope by an expert shop. Thanks for the AGL recommendation I will phone them tomorrow. The current owner is a A&P and did the maintenance...

Non WAAS GPS, not the biggest deal as I would likely get a 750txi installed. ?$15K after 530 rebate.

ADSB required. ?$7k if the 430 is replaced with a GNX 375.

280hp still, the STC is ?$5K but is it still available. Can the current prop suffice for the upgrade or will it need to be changed (McCauley 2A34C241)

Its a hangar queen but with a decent annual/prebuy at AGL this could be a great plane in my opinion.

Thoughts?

I know about this airplane, as I researched it for someone else recently.   It has flown a total of 17 hours in the last 8 years.  The engine...albeit only at sub-900 hours...is considered run-out.  The owner is unlikely to reflect that in the selling price, nor will likely invest anything to bring it up to speed to make it viable for a quick sale.  The “annuals” have covered only a small fraction of what should be done each year.  As noted, both 530 and 430 are non-WAAS.  No ADS/B present.  Shock discs are likely compressed and in need of replacement.

It has the McCauley “toothpick” 2-blade prop, which cannot be used in the 310HP STC upgrade.  You’d need a Hartzell at a minimum of $16,000 (with overshoes and TKS kit).  More if you want an MT.  A rebuilt engine will run you north of $52k, as there was a price increase this past December.  Could probably get away with an OH for a little less, but would recommend the rebuilt path.  In my opinion, there are better options out there.

Steve

[Hilbilly]

Thanks Steve, that is very helpful.

17 hours in 8 years is a HUGE problem, I agree that engine is run-out...

[StevenL757]

3 minutes ago, Hilbilly said:

I will need to overhaul the prop to get it into Canada (10 year mandatory overhaul for us).

Not sure what TopProp is will read up on it, is that a different prop?

My limited understanding is that the 310hp STC needs a STC, governor adjustment to 2700 rpm and ?compatible prop, this one has the McCauley 2A34C241.

The Hartzell 3-blade scimitar propeller option (commonly referred to as the “Top Prop”) is here:  https://hartzellprop.com/products/top-prop/mooney/m20r-no-anti-ice/

There is a lighter option...same as used on the Acclaim Type-S...for a little bit more.  Looks identical, with a couple of small changes, and can also be used with the 310HP upgrade.  The McCauley governor is actually a better governor than the Hartzell, so I would keep it.  You’ll need a “T20” upgrade on the governor to allow it to operate at 2700RPM.  Whomever you have do this upgrade should overhaul the governor and replace certain plastic components with metal if necessary to bring it up to standard.  Probably $1k give or take in parts and labor.

[V1VRV2]

Price is not realistic. A $25,000 - $35,000 adjustment downward is in order.

[M016576]

3 hours ago, V1VRV2 said:

Price is not realistic. A $25,000 - $35,000 adjustment downward is in order.

Based on recent comps- I think that plane will sell at the price it’s currently at.  TKS ovations seem to be in exceptionally high demand right now, regardless of panel, paint or “pedigree.”  Subjectively- average price seems to have gone from high 100’s to mid 200’s in just a year.  Apparently the word is out!

 

with that in mind, though- that aircraft could use 30-40K in the panel (PFD/HSI/MFD, Engine Monitor, waas gps, adsb xponder), as well as the prop/engine (those might fly fine for a while... although it’s a risk).

Edited March 24, 2021 by M016576

[MIm20c]

I wouldn’t spend money to overhaul this prop due to the 10 year requirement, it’s kind of a dog on the runway. You might be able to pick up a O1 3 blade prop for very little and have it overhauled, or find a used top prop. I think one long body member here found one off a cirrus and had it cut down for very little.  You could slide out just the 530 and replace it with a waas unit or a 540. I think Avidyne also has a “slide in” transponder that fits as well. 
 

Prices are crazy high right now flowing all the free money flowing in this country.  It’ll probably sell for close to this to someone who wants a low time airframe and still might have an engine with thousands of hours in it. 

[exM20K]

10 hours ago, Hilbilly said:

Thanks Steve, that is very helpful.

17 hours in 8 years is a HUGE problem, I agree that engine is run-out...

It’s not just the engine that suffers from disuse.  Autopilot servos that sit, helm bearings that sit, hinges that sit, electrical connections, brake components, flap motors, and on, and on.  There is a non-zero chance that a buyer will be chasing various gremlins and failures for a long time.

-Dan

[hypertech]

@AGL Aviationis a good shop.  They just completed my annual on a 2000 Ovation yesterday.  If they do a prebuy for you, make sure you ask them to pull a lifter or two and look at the cam.  This probably is a good plane at the right price.  You'll have to decide for you what the right price is.  Mine was not sitting this long and it didn't save me from having to do the engine and having to chase a few gremlins.  Its nothing time and money can't fix, right?

Edited March 24, 2021 by hypertech

[daytonabch04]

What about a Bravo? I'd sell mine at that price point.   I need a reason to upgrade to a TKS plane myself. 

[Hilbilly]

There is also this non FIKI model, Don Maxwell maintained.

Fresh field Overhaul, early accident history but was repaired by the factory.

[V1VRV2]

13 hours ago, M016576 said:

Based on recent comps- I think that plane will sell at the price it’s currently at.  TKS ovations seem to be in exceptionally high demand right now, regardless of panel, paint or “pedigree.”  Subjectively- average price seems to have gone from high 100’s to mid 200’s in just a year.  Apparently the word is out!

 

with that in mind, though- that aircraft could use 30-40K in the panel (PFD/HSI/MFD, Engine Monitor, waas gps, adsb xponder), as well as the prop/engine (those might fly fine for a while... although it’s a risk).

I bought my airplane in September... 2002 2385 hrs,  TKS, A/C with a new Continental motor w 285 hrs, a redone interior, 3 blade Top Prop, factory O2, WAAS and was well maintained for $260,000. I spent 6mo looking for Ovations before I settled on this one. From my experience shopping the market the asking price is too high.

[Cruiser]

In the March MAPA log there is a M20S listed for sale. It is basically an Ovation airframe with economy options. Looks to be priced attractively. 

[Hilbilly]

10 minutes ago, V1VRV2 said:

I bought my airplane... 2002 2385 hrs,  TKS, A/C with a new Continental motor w 285 hrs, a redone interior, 3 blade Top Prop, factory O2, WAAS and was well maintained for $260,000. I spent 6mo looking for Ovations before I settled on this one. From my experience shopping the market the asking price is too high.

V1VRV2

When did you buy yours?

[V1VRV2]

18 minutes ago, Hilbilly said:

V1VRV2

When did you buy yours?

September 2020

[V1VRV2]

If interested in a PPI I would contact Brian Kendrick. He travels and specializes in Ovations. He used to work for the Mooney factory in several capacities. He will find whatever is wrong with it. http://www.mooneysupport.com/

[TheStig]

21 hours ago, carusoam said:

Flown often is a good idea...  especially if it is an IO360...

Thorough PPI is a really good idea for something that hasn’t moved in three years... 

Review what gets covered in the PPI... including the FIkI system...

a basic PPI might not review all the expensive add one this plane may have...

 

Going up to the 310hp engine... Still very possible... a few details, a TopProp, and an STC available through Mooney...

The expensive part is the prop...

Either way... When you go 310hp... the T/O and climb performance is worth the extra dollars...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

Hey Carusoam, what do you lose in UL with the 310 STC and what is the increase in fuel burn overall. The 280 hp Ovation is amazingly economical compare with other similar planes and even other IO550s (ask me how I know ;-).

Thanks

[TheStig]

1 hour ago, V1VRV2 said:

I bought my airplane in September... 2002 2385 hrs,  TKS, A/C with a new Continental motor w 285 hrs, a redone interior, 3 blade Top Prop, factory O2, WAAS and was well maintained for $260,000. I spent 6mo looking for Ovations before I settled on this one. From my experience shopping the market the asking price is too high.

The market has continued to increase and rather markedly. I have been shopping for M20Es, M20Js and most recently an Ovation and in the close to 2 years I have seen Es go from 30s and 40s to 50s to 70s; J’s went from low 70s to 90s to 130s-150s and Ovations from 150 to 170s to over $200k. Of course TT, engine time, extras and overall condition affect price. 

There are still some deals to be had out there but there seem to be fewer and it seems like a sellers market.

Best of luck.

Stig

[carusoam]

1 hour ago, TheStig said:

Hey Carusoam, what do you lose in UL with the 310 STC and what is the increase in fuel burn overall. The 280 hp Ovation is amazingly economical compare with other similar planes and even other IO550s (ask me how I know ;-).

Thanks

this system is like magic...

The major benefits are found in T/O run and climb rates, so the increased fuel burn is for a few minutes...  the initial climb rate can exceed 2kfpm... 

The fuel burn is near directly connected to the performance... I’m only going to about 10k’ agl...

The T/O run for my plane went from 1,200’ to 800’, matching the book numbers and STC...  my kids would visit their grandparents using a 2,300’ runway... 

 

In cruise... the prop efficiency is reported best at 2550... burning a couple gph to go a few. KTs faster...

You can always dial it back to the ships original 2500rpm if you want to...

 

UL will depend on a few things... aim for zero change...  the TopProp weighs a few more pounds than the original, the MT probably weighs less...

I selected the the Acclaim’s prop for a few more pounds saved on the nose...

I went with the IO550(N) because it’s cylinders were a few pounds lighter than the (G)....

Adjusting the redline in the tach didn’t add any weight at all...

 

Overall it is the same with the magical benefits...

Your choice as PIC... push the knobs in when you want, or leave them back for efficiency...

All in, the max FF is about 27gph...  mechanics bump this up a couple more gph for improved CHT control during the few minutes of climb....

Perfect for visiting shorter runways...

PP thoughts only not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[TheStig]

50 minutes ago, carusoam said:

this system is like magic...

The major benefits are found in T/O run and climb rates, so the increased fuel burn is for a few minutes...  the initial climb rate can exceed 2kfpm... 

The fuel burn is near directly connected to the performance... I’m only going to about 10k’ agl...

The T/O run for my plane went from 1,200’ to 800’, matching the book numbers and STC...  my kids would visit their grandparents using a 2,300’ runway... 

 

In cruise... the prop efficiency is reported best at 2550... burning a couple gph to go a few. KTs faster...

You can always dial it back to the ships original 2500rpm if you want to...

 

UL will depend on a few things... aim for zero change...  the TopProp weighs a few more pounds than the original, the MT probably weighs less...

I selected the the Acclaim’s prop for a few more pounds saved on the nose...

I went with the IO550(N) because it’s cylinders were a few pounds lighter than the (G)....

Adjusting the redline in the tach didn’t add any weight at all...

 

Overall it is the same with the magical benefits...

Your choice as PIC... push the knobs in when you want, or leave them back for efficiency...

All in, the max FF is about 27gph...  mechanics bump this up a couple more gph for improved CHT control during the few minutes of climb....

Perfect for visiting shorter runways...

PP thoughts only not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

Thank you for your insights, thoughts and musings. I will talk to my mechanic about the options to get it done.

Cheers,

Stig

[carusoam]

25 minutes ago, TheStig said:

Thank you for your insights, thoughts and musings. I will talk to my mechanic about the options to get it done.

Cheers,

Stig

See if you can get a ride in a Screamin’ Eagle, or a Standing O, or an O3....

I got a ride in Cris’ Screamin’ .... a couple of months later I was needing an OH...

I grabbed my performance meters and went for another ride with Cris...

I thought my pants mounted accelerometers may have been lying... or my memory wasn’t that strong...

To buy something that expensive, and not have solid data to work from... seemed nuts...

Its easy to get emotionally involved during a buying process with no data, feelings, and a very fuzzy memory...

Collecting data was easy...

Confirming data was fun... 

Knowing Cris was a blast...

Grab your portable WAAS source, iPad, and CloudAhoy App...  and prove it to yourself...

Or just use your seat of the pants... it is that obvious...

It is Corvette HP, in a vehicle that weighs less than a Corvette... (comparing early 90s two seat cars and four seat planes)

Produces maximum HP from the moment you push the throttle in...

And you never have to lift... no gear change, no clutch, no gas pedal to lift....  you do raise the nose at the proper speed... as usual...  

Go O!

PP musings to fit the thread... car comparisons specifically used for the Stig...

Best regards,

-a-

[Niko182]

Price is way too high in my opinion. In my opinion, the plane is priced too high, even if it were in annual, and were flown recently. Non Waas is the first issue. toothpick 2 blade is the second. expect abysmal takeoff performance at gross. The sitting is bad for the plane, and I would guess is probably very bad for the weeping wing. From what I understand from other owners of TKS systems, It seems as if the system should be run every now and then, and for a plane that has been out of annual approaching 4 years, that can't be great for the TKS system. However I don't have TKS so that just happens to be speculation. For the 310hp conversion, expect about 20k give or take. You can get lucky with the engine, but it is a risk. If the engine isn't good, add another 60k for an overhaul plus R&R. A GNX375 can go in for give or take 10k, but going from a 530 to a 375 is a step backwards somewhat. Realistically you're looking at a GTN750XI and a GTX345. Add another 25ish K. And finally getting it back into annual. I bought a hangar queen that got 70 hours of flight time in 9 years. The first annual was approaching 20k.
 

Tread lightly. There's a chance if you buy this, it's gonna come with a lot of nightmares that can realistically only be solved by a lot of money.

[Niko182]

3 hours ago, TheStig said:

Hey Carusoam, what do you lose in UL with the 310 STC and what is the increase in fuel burn overall. The 280 hp Ovation is amazingly economical compare with other similar planes and even other IO550s (ask me how I know ;-).

Thanks

Just the different weight on the prop is gained. If you're going from a 3 blade mac to the hartzell I think the difference is only a couple pounds. It makes the Eagles, Ovations and Acclaims different animals.