Overhaul or IRAN on a mid-time engine?

[JamesMooney]

Would love some second (and third and fourth) opinions on a big decision...

My engine came off due to a cracked case. It was a surprise before the budget was in place to do major engine work - oh well, I've already gotten past that surprise to the wallet.

A well-known engine shop is doing the work. I didn't have to pay for R&R, so that's a freebie in this scenario. Here's my three options:

- basic IRAN - $7900

- IRAN plus new DLC cam and lifter - $11,100 <- I would probably do this instead of the basic IRAN, since its the cam+lifter most likely to cause a failure before TBO

- zero-time overhaul - $22,950

The engine right now has ~900 hours and looked to be in 'good condition' according to the shop.

We plan to keep the plane and fly it for at least another 750-1000 hours (maybe more).

I'm leaning toward IRAN with new cam+lifters, and doing the overhaul 7-10 years from now.

Thoughts from MS?

[J0nathan225]

Overhaul now?

- Pros: only ~$6k more to zero-time the engine; the 'certainty' of everything being to spec, Mid time engine when selling (VALUE)

- Cons: in 1000 hours, I'll be back to having a mid-time engine when I go to sell the plane  I think you are looking at this the wrong way

IRAN with new cam+lifters now?

- Pros: save $6k and defer the overhaul whenever the engine really needs it; recoup some of the overhaul cost by selling it closer to the zero-time < Maybe?  I think someone said avionics is 30Cents to the dollar and an O/H is 50cents? Either way its losing money

- Cons: lost opportunity to overhaul while the engine is off, R&R is already paid for, etc. - I'll be repeating some of the costs down the road.

[Igor_U]

Well, here we have another cracked Lycoming case. Try to share photos here or with few shops so you have a feel if it is reparable or not. it is hard to say from photos but new case would significantly  increase the price. Is your engine original to the 'craft? Was the case repaired before?

I was in your shoes few months ago and it didn't go (that) well. My engine had 1300 SMOH by reputable shop when I discovered the crack. Due to hours and OH done 18y ago I decided to OH and got few quotes and most thought case could be repaired. I was thinking about factory OH but due to age of the engine (original to the plane) I would have to go with rebuilt engine for more $$.

 Luckily I didn't go with cheapest one and decided to go with shop up in BC (Pro aero) that is Lycoming distributor. Inspection of the engine rendered case not reparable due to bearing shuffle and previous repairs, camshaft worn and spalled tappets. To make matter worst my Wide deck engine had narrow deck Camshaft installed at last OH by Victor. That would necessitate to get a new, wide angle accessory case. Also, mag and crank gears were worn so all these additional new parts would drive OH cost over the price of Reman engine. 

So, Pro aero had disassembled engine but managed to get a waiver with Lycoming to accept it as a core with no additional charge so I am waiting for Zero time rebuilt from factory. They say, April 19. I wish I went with Factory reman from the start but sometimes it's a lottery.

It boils down these words asked by Harry Callahan: "You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky? ' Well, do you, P**k?" (no offence).

Good luck.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Igor_U

[Robert Hicks]

Are you sure you’ll be getting a zero time engine? I thought only Lycoming could provide that.

[kortopates]

28 minutes ago, Robert Hicks said:

Are you sure you’ll be getting a zero time engine? I thought only Lycoming could provide that.

Different Zero's, Zero time since major overhaul unless its rebuilt then zero time since new

[kortopates]

If your planning to own in when the overhaul is required it makes little sense to overhaul now - but you really won't be able to fully decide till the engine has been torn down and fully inspected. Right now these are just good estimates. But at a 1000 hrs, IRAN is fine and depending what you do above the min you may get well past TBO hrs before it really needs an OH anyway.

But if you do sell anytime soon after the IRAN, the IRAN cost won't have added to the resale value of the engine/plane - which is the only con IMO.

Edited March 12, 2021 by kortopates

[Guest]

What else is included in the IRAN plus camshaft?  The price difference seems a lot higher than what a cam and new lifters cost.

If it’s indeed $11,100 I’d major it for the $6,000 more if you can swing it.  You mention that R &R labor is included now, but won’t be in the future, furthering you savings.

Clarence

Edited March 12, 2021 by M20Doc

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, Igor_U said:

 

So, Pro aero had disassembled engine but managed to get a waiver with Lycoming to accept it as a core with no additional charge so I am waiting for Zero time rebuilt from factory. They say, April 19. I wish I went with Factory reman from the start but sometimes it's a lottery.

 

 

 

That makes me think he’s getting a zero time motor from Lycoming.

‘Manufacturer’s or their designee’s can zero time, designee’s are rare, but it’s allowed

[kortopates]

What else is included in the IRAN plus camshaft?  The price difference seems a lot higher than what a cam and new lifters cost.

If it’s indeed $11,100 I’d major it for the $6,000 more if you can swing it.  You mention that R &R labor is included now, but won’t be in the future, furthering you savings.

Clarence

Since you bring up cost, 11K is awfully low to major IO-360 - oops 17K actually from above, which is still pretty good.

Discounted Lycoming rebuilt price is over 36K

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[quik flite]

Do it once and done ,it will definitely be more than you think it will cost ,but in the end you’ll have what you want, it will be cheaper in the long run .Guaranteed !  Overhaul it  and enjoy it.  

[201Steve]

To me, your getting full value restoration for $6k. At half life now, that is +$15,000 in value for an additional $6k spent. Nobody will care that you opened it up if it wasn’t overhauled. From a valuation standpoint. I just went through this, and even though I don’t plan on getting rid of it, It felt silly to not capitalize on the single existing scenario for an airplane that I could spend money and it actually reflect and exceed what it did to the valuation of my asset. 

[JamesMooney]

Thanks for all the advice!

I missed one number. The overhaul is closer to $23k including accessories (fuel system o/h; mounts; baffle coating; etc). 

So that makes it a full $12k more than IRAN with new cam+lifters. Or $15k more than just getting it back on the plane in a new case. 

Does that change anyone’s opinion?

...assuming 6-10 years (900-1500 hours) more ownership, at least. 

[JamesMooney]

24 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

To me, your getting full value restoration for $6k. At half life now, that is +$15,000 in value for an additional $6k spent. Nobody will care that you opened it up if it wasn’t overhauled. From a valuation standpoint. I just went through this, and even though I don’t plan on getting rid of it, It felt silly to not capitalize on the single existing scenario for an airplane that I could spend money and it actually reflect and exceed what it did to the valuation of my asset. 

Great points! However i misquoted earlier. It’s actually $23k... so it’s full value of restoration at $12k more spend. $12k now for $15k value in the future... Does that change things?

[Robert Hicks]

Different Zero's, Zero time since major overhaul unless its rebuilt then zero time since new

Ok I must’ve misread that. I thought he was hinting towards a zero time engine/fresh log book.

[Robert Hicks]

[mention]FlyingCanuck [/mention] which engine do you have?

[JamesMooney]

2 minutes ago, Robert Hicks said:

[mention]FlyingCanuck [/mention] which engine do you have?

IO-360-A1A

Last overhaul 18-20 years ago, 900 hours

[Igor_U]

16 hours ago, kortopates said:

Different Zero's, Zero time since major overhaul unless its rebuilt then zero time since new

Paul,

Shop was able to get waiver from Lycoming for sending disassembled core to factory and I bought through them a factory rebuild engine.  Zero time since new with new logbook. Price was almost as good as Air Power and they already had my engine and crate it came in... 
i was aways under impression once engine is apart there would be core charges from factory but apparently Lycoming rep can wave that...

I spoke to Air Power about that as well and they confirmed.

 

[Igor_U]

17 hours ago, Robert Hicks said:

Are you sure you’ll be getting a zero time engine? I thought only Lycoming could provide that.

Yes. True, I bought factory reman through the Pro aero as dealer as you would through Air Power or any other dealer.

 

[carusoam]

1) It’s a personal question...

2) Pay more, get more...

3) Will it be worth it?

4) Will you use it?

5) Will something change between now and then..?

6) Will you sell it?

7) Will you keep it forever?

8) Will you keep flying it the same way for the next decade?

9) Will this financial decision cause heart ache later on..?

10) In the end, only you will know, your best answer, long after you have decided....

Go for it!

Best regards,

-a-

[MBDiagMan]

There is really no way they can tell you how much an IRAN will cost without a complete tear down.  Have they torn it down?

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, MBDiagMan said:

There is really no way they can tell you how much an IRAN will cost without a complete tear down.  Have they torn it down?

And therein is the problem... once it’s torn down you may be out of luck and choices...

[MBDiagMan]

Yes, for all you know, you might find an unusable case and crankshaft.  At that point the ante increases quickly.  Right now if you want it back together quickly it probably won’t happen.  Many parts have a long lead time right now.

[Ragsf15e]

11 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

Yes, for all you know, you might find an unusable case and crankshaft.  At that point the ante increases quickly.  Right now if you want it back together quickly it probably won’t happen.  Many parts have a long lead time right now.

Yep, and by the time you add up all the unserviceable parts and outsource overhaul of the fuel servo, mags, starter, alternator, governor, etc, you might be wishing you’d have just done a factory reman from the beginning.  Problem is, that’s a huge price delta from a simple IRAN for just the cam.  I’ve worried about this as I have an 1100 hour, but older engine....

[hammdo]

Just some context, the plane I bought from David did just this. It was a ~1100 hr factory rebuilt when it had a gear up/prop strike. Engine was a first run rebuild. They decided to IRAN the engine lower only - certify on cam, followers, crank, etc. alt, air pump, prop governor, mags done. Already had the lightweight starter. New prop - but was not considered an overhaul since they kept the cylinders and only did the IRAN.

now has ~600 hrs since then. 
 

Top overhaul with new cylinders is my plan when it comes time. The case was pretty much gone through well at the time it was IRAN. Since the IRAN, alt (again) and exhaust we’re overhauled. SureFly now is in the left mag. Right mag is next for IRAN. Once the other G5 and electric step go in, then no more vacuum/air pump. 

Food for thought.

-Don

[N201MKTurbo]

Wow, how times have changed. The last time I had a cracked case repaired, about 20 years ago. The engine shop charged $4000.