Dissimilar Aircraft Formation Flying

[Seth]

So this is a "learned from that" write up so others don't make the same mistake.

I have undergone formation training with the Mooney Caravan and have flown some formation with others. Dan posted a picture of me and Alan departing from Mooney Summit in 2019. I was in a Cirrus SR-22 and he was in his S-35 Bonanza.

I have flown formation with Alan in his Bonanza before - with me in my Mooney Missile. Though those airplanes are different, they are more similar than a Cirrus. The Cirrus does not climb as well and climbs faster. So with Alan in the lead when we departed in the Bonanza and Mooney, I stayed with him during a formation takeoff.

In the Cirrus, when Alan departed. He rotated and started climbing prior to the Cirrus being fast enough to break ground. His climb out speed was slower than mine, thus I started pulling ahead even though he was in the lead, but he was higher than me. I was getting ready to "break it off." I still had him in sight but you can see in the picture taken how he was climbing better and I had more forward speed. Our saving grace was that the tower approved us for our turnout to the north east and when Alan turned, I was able to use that to get in proper position behind him to the right. Then I was able to manipulate the Cirrus to climb appropriately with him loosely tucked in on the right.

I could have reduced power earlier, but with the Cirrus, I don't like to be too slow. However I should have reduced power a bit. Also, since then, I've trained some more and we could have done him taking off, then me waiting until he was a certain length down the runway for a staggered formation takeoff vs an in formation takeoff as we did with the Mooney and Bonanza earlier and as I'd been trained initially with the Mooney Caravan. We should have recognized the dissimilar rotation speed and climb speed but had been lulled into complacency as we've flown together in different but dissimilar aircraft prior. Plus as noted, we should have used a different takeoff technique/procedure.

So, we learned something! And it did was fun.

I'll repost the pic momentarily.

-Seth

 

 

[Seth]

Dan Bass took this picture of us departing leaving Mooney Summit VII in Sept 2019. Alan and Anthony were in the Bonanza and Seth and Mari "Mars" Metzler were in the Cirrus.

-Seth

[N201MKTurbo]

Couldn't you pitch up to reduce your speed and maybe increase your climb rate?

[gsxrpilot]

4 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Couldn't you pitch up to reduce your speed and maybe increase your climb rate?

As long as Wing doesn't get above Lead. 

[Seth]

I did that as well, It's how we stayed closer, but he was climbing at a speed that was not typical in the configuration of the Cirrus. Typical configuration in the Cirrus is climb at 120 knots flaps up. So I was already well behind that to stay where you saw it in the picture. Just after liftoff when I realized the issue was upon us, I did not want to pull power nor over pitch until positive rate was established. After that I modified. And the turn out and transition to more of a cruise climb was fine.

-Seth

[DanM20C]

A few more photos to go along with the story.  
 

cheers,

Dan

[carusoam]

Way cool, Dan!

-a-

[Seth]

Thank you Dan!

Again, a good learning opportunity. 

-Seth

[Ibra]

Thanks for sharing, a Caravan to Mooney Summit that looks fun, where does one sign?
@tmo this sound like a better plan for the next Mooney Sumit trip 

18 hours ago, Seth said:

We should have recognized the dissimilar rotation speed and climb speed but had been lulled into complacency as we've flown together in different but dissimilar aircraft prior. Plus as noted, we should have used a different takeoff technique/procedure.

Indeed, it's very hard to manage on takeoff & climb, aircraft differences in joint ASI & VSI 2D-parameters (and acceleration) will start to creep in, unlike in cruise where it's only 1D steady variable ASI and follow your lead  even on similar aircrafts, slightest difference in power & pilot takeoff techniques becomes really apparent...

Not as fast as Mooney Caravan, I had a trip with other 4 pilots in 4*Turbulents (D31), between us we had load of formation hours and enough team coordination, but one time on a long XC week trip we decided to invite a friend to join in his Luscombe L8 (to carry few bags as we barely had 20LBS in Turbulents ), every formation takeoff & climb we had with that Luscombe was a fiasco, but the transition to cruise was generally fine 

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Ibra

[A64Pilot]

Formation flying, take off and landings are three different things.

‘For example a Mooney can fly formation with my C-140, but landings and takeoffs would be problematic.

These two can fly together, but landings and takeoffs would be more difficult.

 

[A64Pilot]

At the Army Test Activity, we had a specially equipped CH-47 helicopter with a large retractable spray boom like a crop duster, it was used for ice testing.

‘I can’t find it, but there is a picture of a C-17 tucked uo in trail with that CH-47 being covered in artificial ice. We even had a specially equipped King Air with all kinds of instrumentation and the Chinook could pump air into the water it was spraying and create all kinds of different forms of ice that you will fly into naturally.

So once in a while you may see a CH-47 with a very different aircraft flying on its tail. The time I saw it, it was February in the Upper Peninsula of Wisconsin, we were based out of an old abandoned Air Force base.

I found a clip of it, the Chinook has three APU’s two to run the spray system

https://www.waff.com/2019/05/10/redstone-test-center-training-upcoming-icing-test/

Edited March 10, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Jim Peace]

Many different planes fly together at the creek every Friday night....sometimes there is a helicopter in the mix....

[philiplane]

I guess I don't understand the fascination with formation flying, given the amount of accidents that occur every year. Dissimilar airplanes, with untrained pilots, are a recipe for disaster. Real formation flying requires a lot of education and a thorough briefing before hand. I've see a lot of these impromptu formation flights leaving Spruce Creek, and they are scary. 

[N201MKTurbo]

I used to do a lot of formation flying. It is a lot of fun and really gets you in tune with the speed dimension of flying.

Although I never had any formal training, my friends and I watched WWII formation training videos (VHS) and went out and practiced the maneuvers in the film. We always briefed who would be lead, what frequency we would use, when we would switch and what maneuver we would do along with how and where we would form up.

I also had a cousin who was an Air Force pilot. On day I asked him about formation flying, he went on for about 4 hours!
 

That being said, I watched two Nanchings do a low pass yesterday that looked sketchy.

Edited March 14, 2021 by N201MKTurbo

[201er]

It may be an even bigger problem with dissimilar speeds formation landing with a Cirrus when the Cirrus is parachuting down.

[Seth]

On 3/14/2021 at 4:02 PM, 201er said:

It may be an even bigger problem with dissimilar speeds formation landing with a Cirrus when the Cirrus is parachuting down.

That's funny. 

Seriously though, I'm glad we are discussing this subject. 

Again, we were lulled into the former dissimilar profile withe Mooney and Bonanza flights we had done in the past. We had briefed it, I just didn't think about the different rotation, climb rate, speed, angles, etc of the Cirrus vs the Bonanza and Mooney which while not the same are much more similar. 

Great information and sharing in this thread.

-Seth

[N9201A]

That's funny. 
Seriously though, I'm glad we are discussing this subject. 
Again, we were lulled into the former dissimilar profile withe Mooney and Bonanza flights we had done in the past. We had briefed it, I just didn't think about the different rotation, climb rate, speed, angles, etc of the Cirrus vs the Bonanza and Mooney which while not the same are much more similar. 
Great information and sharing in this thread.
-Seth

Good of you to share this, Seth.

Rotation speed, climb rate and speed during climb out, and all speed and configuration changes are integral part of any preflight brief. There are briefing card formats that walk through these and other issues to ensure they’re not overlooked.

Use an interval takeoff instead of an element takeoff. This is common, especially between dissimilar aircraft types. A couple years ago the Caravan moved to this, although B2Osh still does element takeoffs.

There has been enough written about the dangers of putting dissimilar aircraft close together, from the B-70 Valkyrie to recent highly-publicized fatal incidents. That said, Cirri, Beeches, our Mooneys generally match up well and can hold 100KTS/500 fpm climb, 120KTS cruise, and 90KTS approach/final.

I’m sure there are some aboard here who’ve done air-to-air photography with dissimilar types. I’ve also flown my 201 alongside other types, including Cessna, Grumman, Nanchang, Yak and even a T6 and some twins. Believe it or not, our Mooneys’ slipperiness and relative lack of excess thrust can make them a little more challenging than a draggier aircraft with a bigger engine.

But as has been pointed out, positioning aircraft next to each other in level flight and getting them off and on the ground are not the same thing. The plan must be briefed and understood in each case, and it’s often simpler/safer to join up once airborne.

Even more than instrument flying, formation skills are highly perishable. Currency matters. All we do in all of our other flying (scanning the panel, verifying power settings, staying away from other planes) goes against what we do when flying form. That muscle memory is hard to overcome, but it must be, as our “normal” habits absolutely can cause a scary moment while form flying, or a final one.

Above all, anyone contemplating a form flight should first get some practice with some qualified/credentialed folks who are expert in this, and don’t practice with anyone not similarly experienced/credentialed. Form flying is not intuitive and not something even the sharpest pilot will just figure out on the flight.

Thanks again for sharing your experience, Seth.

Anyone who is interested, come on out and fly with some of us Caravan formators sometime. It’s addictive, a team sport, and a great way to combine socializing and flying.

[N9201A]

It may be an even bigger problem with dissimilar speeds formation landing with a Cirrus when the Cirrus is parachuting down.

Paying forward the generosity and support of our B2Osh colleagues that enabled us to move to an all-form format, the Caravan supported both the Cherokees and Cirri mass arrivals by hosting them as elements within our mass flight. In 2015 we prepared and presented to Cirrus Lead the below commemorative plaque depicting their anticipated 2016 inaugural mass arrival.

[Seth]

7 minutes ago, N9201A said:

Good of you to share this, Seth.

Rotation speed, climb rate and speed during climb out, and all speed and configuration changes are integral part of any preflight brief. There are briefing card formats that walk through these and other issues to ensure they’re not overlooked.

Use an interval takeoff instead of an element takeoff. This is common, especially between dissimilar aircraft types. A couple years ago the Caravan moved to this, although B2Osh still does element takeoffs.

There has been enough written about the dangers of putting dissimilar aircraft close together, from the B-70 Valkyrie to recent highly-publicized fatal incidents. That said, Cirri, Beeches, our Mooneys generally match up well and can hold 100KTS/500 fpm climb, 120KTS cruise, and 90KTS approach/final.

I’m sure there are some aboard here who’ve done air-to-air photography with dissimilar types. I’ve also flown my 201 alongside other types, including Cessna, Grumman, Nanchang, Yak and even a T6 and some twins. Believe it or not, our Mooneys’ slipperiness and relative lack of excess thrust can make them a little more challenging than a draggier aircraft with a bigger engine.

But as has been pointed out, positioning aircraft next to each other in level flight and getting them off and on the ground are not the same thing. The plan must be briefed and understood in each case, and it’s often simpler/safer to join up once airborne.

Even more than instrument flying, formation skills are highly perishable. Currency matters. All we do in all of our other flying (scanning the panel, verifying power settings, staying away from other planes) goes against what we do when flying form. That muscle memory is hard to overcome, but it must be, as our “normal” habits absolutely can cause a scary moment while form flying, or a final one.

Above all, anyone contemplating a form flight should first get some practice with some qualified/credentialed folks who are expert in this, and don’t practice with anyone not similarly experienced/credentialed. Form flying is not intuitive and not something even the sharpest pilot will just figure out on the flight.

Thanks again for sharing your experience, Seth.

Anyone who is interested, come on out and fly with some of us Caravan formators sometime. It’s addictive, a team sport, and a great way to combine socializing and flying.

Yes - interval takeoff would have been better in this case and what we will do in the future with dissimilar aircraft.

We landed separately not in formation.
 

-Seth

 

[A64Pilot]

On 3/14/2021 at 12:00 PM, philiplane said:

I guess I don't understand the fascination with formation flying, given the amount of accidents that occur every year. Dissimilar airplanes, with untrained pilots, are a recipe for disaster. Real formation flying requires a lot of education and a thorough briefing before hand. I've see a lot of these impromptu formation flights leaving Spruce Creek, and they are scary. 

There are a few like that where I live too, and I’ve participated in one and it was flaky, not sure I will another. 

 

This was years ago, maybe 1989? Anyway there were 6 ships staggered right. Gun 6 took the photo.

‘Good thing about airplanes is if you bump wings it’s probably OK, helicopters, not so much 

[Andy95W]

Where was that?  It looks like Ft Hood in the summer or Ft Campbell in the fall. 

[A64Pilot]

On 3/21/2021 at 7:05 PM, Andy95W said:

Where was that?  It looks like Ft Hood in the summer or Ft Campbell in the fall. 

It was returning to Ft Hood from conducting a live fire demo at Ft Sill, the demo was neat because we got to see the arty guys do their thing and even a low altitude drop of a full bomb load from a B-52. The artillery guys had a neat trick, they could fire three or four rounds each at different trajectories and all land on target at the same time.

The B-52 was something to see too.

‘I don’t know where it was because there was no radio call of we are fixing to take a picture or anythiing

Edited March 27, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Yooper Rocketman]

I guess this is a disimular (Loose) formation flight.  Flew down with another IVP (gas engine) to WInterhaven, FL from Spruce Creek the last time we were at our Florida home.

I say disimular because even though the airframes are identical, he's flying behind 350 HP and I am behind 724 HP.

Tom

 

[A64Pilot]

You have the Walter E11 ? Is it derated to 724?

Can you hit torque limits or do you temp out first?

[Yooper Rocketman]

The “E” model IS 750 HP, but is an underperforming engine to the “D” in the Flight Levels.   If you desire maximum performance in the Flight Levels, the D would be your choice.   I have the “D”.   It’s rated to 724HP, not “de-rated”.    The “E” just doesn’t handle bleed air losses for pressurization as well as the “D”.   
 

I’m ITT limited, but at 310 knots, I’m not particularly disappointed in its performance.  And the “E” has a higher ITT limitation.  But it doesn’t help it’s performance up high.   Most pressurized airplanes perform MUCH BETTER with the “D” model of the Walters.  
 

Tom