COVID 19 Vaccination Discussion

[jaylw314]

10 hours ago, donkaye said:

Out of curiosity for the doctors on board, how is the effectiveness of a vaccine determined without exposing the volunteers to the actual virus?

The studies done to approve (or emergency approve, in this case) the vaccines were done by following two groups, the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, and recording the difference in the number of people testing positive at some point later.

You can sort of see the problem with this.  If you're testing a rare (less than 1% in duration of the study) infection, you need a ton of people to get accurate numbers.  Early in the pandemic, that was still the case, which probably makes some of the early numbers less accurate than the later numbers.

I was expecting efficacy to be something in the 70-90% range like most other prior vaccines, so the 90-95% results for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines were a bit of a surprise.  As such, I have some doubts about the accuracy, but I've been wrong before, and, admittedly, the vaccine strategy for those two is different than other vaccines.

Sadly, more recent studies give us more accurate and reliable numbers because the infection rate is so much higher now.

FWIW I got the first dose of the Pfizer vaccine a couple weeks ago.  The injection volume was a lot less than I was expecting, so there was almost no soreness immediately after the injection, but definitely the next 1-2 days.  I had no other side effects and was back to work 12 hours later.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I don't mind getting the vaccine, but I don't want to sign away my HIPPA rights and get in their damn database. It's none of the governments business what medicines I've taken (I know, I just did MedXpress) or what businesses I've visited. They are trying to get us to a point where you won't be able to do anything unless you identify yourself to prove you have been vaccinated. This will allow them to track your every move. None of their damn business!

You've never had HIPPA rights.  If your doctor chooses to not use electronic records or e-mail, nothing in HIPPA would apply.  He could give your records to anyone he likes without breaking any federal statutes, your signature be damned.

I encourage anyone interested in health care privacy to take a read through HIPPA.  It's interesting what it does and does not entail.

Also, fallacy of equivalency

• vaccination records =/= track your every move

[1964-M20E]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Guess I'll just be hungry if work makes me fly to / through Chicago again. There is no link between my phone and any bank, no apps, no paypal, nothing.

Besides, this is what I see on my cash money:  THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE. How do places get away with not accepting it? Time for a pro-bono lawyer to start a class action lawsuit on behalf of a thirsty air traveler, and collect his third / half of the proceeds!

Sit down order your food and drink be merry and then pay in cash or credit when you leave most places don't ask for money before they serve you.  If they refuse to accept cash or credit get as close as you can in cash and when you leave or put it in their hand and say here's my payment good day mam and walk out.  They can't claim you didn't pay you put money in their hand.

[N201MKTurbo]

22 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

You've never had HIPPA rights.  If your doctor chooses to not use electronic records or e-mail, nothing in HIPPA would apply.  He could give your records to anyone he likes without breaking any federal statutes, your signature be damned.

I encourage anyone interested in health care privacy to take a read through HIPPA.  It's interesting what it does and does not entail.

Also, fallacy of equivalency

• vaccination records =/= track your every move

So with all this talk about vaccination passports, and the government needing proof of vaccination, wouldn't it allow them to track your every move? It would almost certainly require checking your status in a database. At that time they would know where the request came from and assume you are there.

[1964-M20E]

I received my first shot already and go back for the second in Feb.  I'm not afraid of Covid.  I only got the shot because of my association with the local sheriff's office and fire department.  Otherwise I would not worry about getting vaccine.  I think the media has many people in the country hyper fixated on coivd and over reacting.  Yes it's there but it is not a death sentence if you catch it like the media is presenting it.

As for the FAA and their acceptance of the vaccine I do not care what they say.  If someone wants the vaccine get it and move on.

As for any requirements that you have the vacation to travel, passport, work, shop etc.   ABSOLUTELY NOT and I won't' get into the mask thing.

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Yes, and I can turn it off anytime I want. It is for my use, not the governments.

I was in ORD the other day. You cannot buy food there without a phone. That's crazy. You cannot pay for it without a phone app. they won't take cash or a credit card. It was the same vendor for all the places, it seemed.

You really think turning off your phone stops data flow? Really?

New phones, no SIM card they will still find a network and drop a dime on you. Not just where you are now, but where you have been. Your belief that you have some privacy is illusionary. They know you got a vaccination, regardless of HIPPA

https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/video/android-phone-tracking-59676023

[GeeBee]

10 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

As for any requirements that you have the vacation to travel, passport, work, shop etc.   ABSOLUTELY NOT and I won't' get into the mask thing.

I can name 1 dozen countries right off the top of my head that will not allow you to enter without a yellow card. I had a flight attendant that was turned around and put back on the airplane in Ghana because she forgot her vaccination card. I keep my complete vaccination records on my yellow card and yes, I have been asked to prove vaccination for everything from Measles to Yellow Fever to travel.

When you stand there in line waiting to get into a country, including the United States, even if you are a US citizen, you are "persona non grata" and they don't have to let you in if you don't meet the requirements.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 minute ago, GeeBee said:

I can name 1 dozen countries right off the top of my head that will not allow you to enter without a yellow card. I had a flight attendant that was turned around and put back on the airplane in Ghana because she forgot her vaccination card. I keep my complete vaccination records on my yellow card and yes, I have been asked to prove vaccination for everything from Measles to Yellow Fever to travel.

 

I have a feeling that a card won't suffice for their plans. cards can be forged. We will see. What are the penalties for using a forged vaccine card?

[steingar]

I have a very small social circle.  One of my friend's daughters got the 'rona. I think she's 25, 26 tops.  Months later she has a tremor that shows no signs of abating.  She used to cut hair.

Another old friend of mine got it, now he can't breathe right.  He was an actor.  He's my age.

I'll take the vaccine thank you.  I'm plenty frightened of the 'rona, it can really do a number on someone my age.  My neighbors got it and were fine.  Others get it and have a catastrophic disease.  It's random and difficult to predict.  I'll take the vaccine.  I'll take government monitoring if there is any, still beats potential catastrophic disease.

[KLRDMD]

“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
― Benjamin Franklin

[laytonl]

First shot was a non-issue for us. second shot is next week.  Lee

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So with all this talk about vaccination passports, and the government needing proof of vaccination, wouldn't it allow them to track your every move? It would almost certainly require checking your status in a database. At that time they would know where the request came from and assume you are there.

"Allow them to track your every move?"  From vaccination records about which lot it came from?  No, but your bike, car and airplane registrations numbers would.  You have to display those and those are technically fair game for law enforcement to search their database without cause or warrant.  What's to stop them from recording those searches?  That means being out in public in a vehicle could result in the government tracking your every move.  You should really get rid of all of those right now.  They're bad for your health anyway.

If they really wanted the ability to track you, they'd get much more granular information by simply asking you to show your ID.  You should really get rid of that as well.

They could also more easily track you by your internet activity.  You should really get rid of that as well.

Edited January 29, 2021 by jaylw314

[GeeBee]

53 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I have a feeling that a card won't suffice for their plans. cards can be forged. We will see. What are the penalties for using a forged vaccine card?

Depends where you use it and on the country.  Can you eat a cup of rice a day with two fingers (assuming the gang lets you keep it). I've seen a Honduran prison. You would not like it.

As for the United States let me recite this to you. I've had flight attendants who forgot they had a banana or apple in their bag. After getting busted by that cute beagle who sniffs everything, they get 3 years Federal Administrative probation. Each time they enter the country they must present themselves and their form (because their Global Entry is revoked) to a CBP officer. He then scrawls a big red "S" on it (smuggler) and sends them to secondary. There they wait about two hours in line for an officer to toss their luggage and maybe some one to do a body search. So they get to go home two hours after everyone else. If they have a connecting flight...too bad.

So what do you think happens in the US if you are busted with false entry documents?

 

 

 

 

 

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Not sure if he’s a genius or a crackpot but Snowden claims phones are tracking us even when off. 

That'd be "crackpot". 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

I have a very small social circle.  One of my friend's daughters got the 'rona. I think she's 25, 26 tops.  Months later she has a tremor that shows no signs of abating.  She used to cut hair.

Another old friend of mine got it, now he can't breathe right.  He was an actor.  He's my age.

I'll take the vaccine thank you.  I'm plenty frightened of the 'rona, it can really do a number on someone my age.  My neighbors got it and were fine.  Others get it and have a catastrophic disease.  It's random and difficult to predict.  I'll take the vaccine.  I'll take government monitoring if there is any, still beats potential catastrophic disease.

I had the rona. It ruined my endurance for a while. I skated 35 miles the week before I got it. I actually skated while I had it with a 101 fever (I was bored to tears). Don't worry it was on a week day and there was nobody on the path. I hit the wall after 7 miles. Making the last 4 miles home was a chore. I had to sit and catch my breath about every 1/2 mile. It took 2 months until I was back up to speed and could do 25 miles (the most I've done since).

[GeeBee]

9 minutes ago, EricJ said:

That'd be "crackpot". 

Have you read Glen Greenwald's book on Snowden No Place To Hide. ?

[Andy95W]

31 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I've seen a Honduran prison. You would not like it.

 

 

[EricJ]

Just now, Andy95W said:

 

One of the finest aviation movies, ever. 

[Ross Statham]

1 hour ago, laytonl said:

First shot was a non-issue for us. second shot is next week.  Lee

Thanks, kind sir. I started this post to ask about things like you’re describing. I do wish we might get a little more back to the subject at hand....

I’m particularly interested to hear about the different reactions on the second dose. So I’d encourage everybody to keep us updated on those.  Thanks y’all!

[Nukemzzz]

Interesting. I see several of you mentioned taking pain killers prior to the shot. Seems the latest on this is to avoid the pain killers until after. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/covid-19-vaccine-shot-painkillers-doctors/

[Smiles201]

Used to live in Los Alamos NM. My wife at the time did some top secret work, so she said.  Anyway,  every so often you'd look at your phone and notice it was on, like you were talking to someone, but you had not called anyone and no one had called you.  They have that capability,  for the intelligence agencies I suppose. Kinda glad they got their ear to the rail. I have nothing to hide. But I did learn that wearing an aluminum foil hat reduced the frequency of these intrusions! 

[MooneyMitch]

13 minutes ago, Smiles201 said:

Used to live in Los Alamos NM. My wife at the time did some top secret work, so she said.  Anyway,  every so often you'd look at your phone and notice it was on, like you were talking to someone, but you had not called anyone and no one had called you.  They have that capability,  for the intelligence agencies I suppose. Kinda glad they got their ear to the rail. I have nothing to hide. But I did learn that wearing an aluminum foil hat reduced the frequency of these intrusions! 

It’s sounds as though she might have thought you did have something to hide, given that strange phone business!!!

Good job on the hat !!

[bradp]

On 1/29/2021 at 12:21 AM, Will.iam said:

My big question is if you already got covid and recovered, will they require you to get vaccinated? My job recognizes 90 days immunity. I wonder if i could get antibodies test at a time period after that? I mean right now do they even know how long the vaccine will last?

You should still get vaccinated even if you had Covid and recovered.  No need to get antibodies.  The vaccine results in you making much more antibody than you’d get by natural infection. So there’s a benefit. It will be like you got Covid three times and recovered - you’ll have a robust immune response.   Vaccine immunity may last longer than natural immunity as well

[bradp]

My second Pfizer was sore muscles and swollen lymph nodes in my armpit for a few days.  I got fever and chills on the first and second nights after.  My wife told me to suck it up after getting my “man vaccine”.  For little kids getting vaccines there is data that tells us immune responses are not as good if you pre medicate with Tylenol or NSAIDs, so I avoided pre medicating myself until I got fevers.  Dose of ibuprofen and the fevers / myalgia resolved in about 40 min.  Did the same thing the second night.  Single dose of ibuprofen only after I got fever/chills.  @Amelia one of the big physician bulletin boards there are a lot of those local site itchy bump pictures floating around. Likely a delayed type hypersensitivity reaction (your T cells are working into the local area along with your innate immune cells).  Means the vaccine is working and should resolve after a week.  
 

We got our second doses at the same time together.  First time I’ve been hopeful about this pandemic in a while.  
 

But now we have the South African variant community spreading in South Carolina.  And the Brazil variant has been identified in MN.  Not good news.  The SA variant will likely be here in NC in a couple of weeks if it’s not already.  But it shouldn’t change anything practically speaking for now.  Vaccine likely gives a partial immune response.  The new J&J vaccine is one shot and looks to be partially effective in South Africa, so that’s good.  More data needs to come quickly- but for now wear your masks (yes double up), continue to social distance, get the vaccine when your turn comes. 
 

@ilovecornfields the kids we’ve had with multiple inflammatory syndrome have been sick as stink. One required a ventricular assist device, others in heart failure.  I’ve seen much more new onset type I diabetes in the past year than I should be. The kids do get affected by this - some for the rest of their lives - and they don’t deserve it. 

[ilovecornfields]

32 minutes ago, bradp said:

@ilovecornfields the kids we’ve had with multiple inflammatory syndrome have been sick as stink. One required a ventricular assist device, others in heart failure.  I’ve seen much more new onset type I diabetes in the past year than I should be. The kids do get affected by this - some for the rest of their lives - and they don’t deserve it. 

I’ve only seen two kids with MIS-C and they both had to go to the PICU. I think one got started on pressors that night, not sure how the other one did (with some patients I don’t want to know the answer).

Seems likes there’s an adult form (MIS-A) as well which isn’t as well characterized yet.

Thank you for what you do. I hate seeing kids that sick and I’m glad there’s someone else to hand them off to. No, they don’t deserve it and they usually weren’t the ones that made the choices that lead them to get infected.