IFR panel dilemmas

[dominikos]

Lance, very good questions... I decided to build a spreadsheet with similar options - also realized that a single large screen might provide similar capability at the same price... especially when you factor in the cost of engine monitor...

[Lance Link]

I’ve been told the cost of cutting just that part of the panel isn’t that much, but was by the guy who wants to charge me to cut it.

[PeteMc]

Actually...  GNC355 was mentioned in one of the first posts.  I suggested it as the second Comm and would give the option of LPV approaches.  Somewhere down the road the 430 could be upgraded to a 750/650 or whatever else was available at the time.

GI275 I see as a big plus for a number of reasons.  If just one, it still gives a display for Map, Traffic, etc. AND gives you a backup AI.  With the ADAHRS, you also have a Backup if you have a full electrical failure. 

Down the road you could add a second 275 or possibly go with a bigger display, but you have options.  And pending which screen you added, if you already had a 275 ADAHRS version, you probably could loose your vacuum system.

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, Lance Link said:

I am curious why most recommendations mention 2 GI 275s as opposed to one 7" G3X, for example in Don Kaye's Lincoln and Honda packages.  I'd think the G3X would be bigger, easier to see, and if I am not mistaken can provide terrain.  I don't think one of these is much more expensive than 2 GI 275s, if at all.  Are the 275s a lot better for some reason?

And why no mention of a simple GPS 175 (or a GNX 375 or GNC 355 depending on other instruments that are available) with the current 430 as a back-up, instead of a GTN 650Xi?  Might that be an economical solution, and suitable for the OP's intended use?  A GTN 750Xi and a GTN 650Xi is one heapin' big lotta' dough.  Would those two admittedly better units really be worth the money?

And as a radical notion, how about an Aera 760 mounted somewhere using ship's power, for a bigger map, charts, and plates, for less than 2 AMUs?  

I am considering a similar type of upgrade (with a GFC 500), and am leaning toward the single G3X, so this is a question of particular interest.

  

It’s a good option, just factor in keeping or adding an appropriate AI backup like a gi275 or G5.  By the time you add the backup and install, the g3x solution is definitely more than fitting 2xgi275s.  Cutting the panel for the g3x is likely significant...

[carusoam]

If you want to see a pair of GI275s in a Mooney panel...

Find @Fly_M20R... he has detailed the installation and has done some nice videos as well...

They can be pretty powerful devices...

Best regards,

-a-

[Lance Link]

Got it.  It seems that the advantage of the GI 275s is cost.  (And I neglected to mention that with a G3X one would absolutely want a back up AI like a G5). 

[Ragsf15e]

8 hours ago, Lance Link said:

Got it.  It seems that the advantage of the GI 275s is cost.  (And I neglected to mention that with a G3X one would absolutely want a back up AI like a G5). 

I’d say cost and fitting legacy panel space.  If you want to remove a vacuum ADI and DG, and just pop in 2xGI275s, boom! You’ve got awesome, current avionics in the exact same holes.  (It does take some integration wiring for autopilot, gps, etc).  If you’re cutting a whole new panel, the G3x is an awesome option with lots of possibilities... built in engine monitor, pfd/mfd capability, integrated traffic and weather, bigger screen, etc.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Ragsf15e

[larryb]

Cutting a new panel is not that expensive in the scheme of things. I think it was a $1400 line item in my panel redo. That included two trial panels in plexiglass for fitting before the final aluminum one was fabricated.

[dominikos]

Thank you, that’s a useful data point. How much was the labor increase due to the new panel? I was quoted $4K - $6K with panel installation as delta from keeping existing panel. With lower panel cost, 3 x GI275s (with EIS) or G3X would be pretty much the same.

[carusoam]

Trying to price the panel alone...

Can be extra challenging.

The material is dirt cheap...

Cutting a known design, isn’t very expensive either...

Painting and adding all the graphics is a little specialized...

There are some EAA services that can really help...

 

Now... For the expensive part...

When you want to go full modern panel, and you don’t have a successful one you can copy...

You may want somebody to do the engineering level work to make sure everything fits in 3D...   this is where hours of engineering and cad work get spent...

modeling in acrylic is a wonderful first step... leading to a perfect panel...

This depth of detail has been done by MSers wanting to fly serious IFR, with minimum down time for there machine...

The low cost route of using an existing design... probably pales against the cost of the instrument tech that has to remove the old panel and reinstall everything properly...

PP thoughts only, not an instrument guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[dominikos]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Trying to price the panel alone...

Can be extra challenging.

The material is dirt cheap...

Cutting a known design, isn’t very expensive either...

Painting and adding all the graphics is a little specialized...

There are some EAA services that can really help...

 

Now... For the expensive part...

When you want to go full modern panel, and you don’t have a successful one you can copy...

You may want somebody to do the engineering level work to make sure everything fits in 3D...   this is where hours of engineering and cad work get spent...

modeling in acrylic is a wonderful first step... leading to a perfect panel...

This depth of detail has been done by MSers wanting to fly serious IFR, with minimum down time for there machine...

The low cost route of using an existing design... probably pales against the cost of the instrument tech that has to remove the old panel and reinstall everything properly...

PP thoughts only, not an instrument guy...

Best regards,

-a-

My thoughts exactly... moving all the breakers, switches, rewiring in case existing wires are too short. I can definitely see it becoming a few days of work...

[JustSomeGuy]

This is a very helpful string for those of us in the buying market. Comparing THIS plane, to THAT one, which has a Century II and an Aspen PFD, vs another with old OEM setups that are thousands less expensive, vs THAT one that has a G5 and a 650 but no A/P is...challenging. 

I'm considering installation of a G3X and a  GFC500 A/P in my next aircraft, if not up to what I'd prefer for situational and mechanical awareness; the G3X, while hardly inexpensive, at least allows for integration of engine monitoring w/o an additional 'box'. A JDI 900 would be great, but: it's a separate box, and the price differential between that plus 2 G5s or G275s seems higher than the G3X. 

Someone, anyone educate or correct me on this, please. I quite like the Aspen and Dynon offerings, but it would seem to narrow one's subsequent options, particularly A/P options.

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, JustSomeGuy said:

Someone, anyone educate or correct me on this, please. I quite like the Aspen and Dynon offerings, but it would seem to narrow one's subsequent options, particularly A/P options.

I'm a big fan of Aspen/Avidyne and JPI... but if you need an autopilot, the GFC500 is the way to go today. And for that you're gonna want the G3X or a G5. 

I would probably still go with an EDM 900 as my engine monitor. It's the most important instrument in my panel.

[donkaye, MCFI]

21 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm a big fan of Aspen/Avidyne and JPI... but if you need an autopilot, the GFC500 is the way to go today. And for that you're gonna want the G3X or a G5. 

I would probably still go with an EDM 900 as my engine monitor. It's the most important instrument in my panel.

JPI has good products, but I just flew a Bravo from Minden to Napa that had the EDM 900.   I would need a magnifying glass to see some of the numbers.  Very uncomfortable for me trying to read them compared to the larger numbers of the MVP 50.

[gsxrpilot]

5 minutes ago, donkaye said:

JPI has good products, but I just flew a Bravo from Minden to Napa that had the EDM 900.   I would need a magnifying glass to see some of the numbers.  Very uncomfortable for me trying to read them compared to the larger numbers of the MVP 50.

I would have probably gone with an MVP-50 if I had the room for it. It was important to me to have it on the left side of the panel and unlike your panel, I just didn't have room for the MVP-50 on the left side.

[carusoam]

Some times flight stream gets shortened to FS...

Would the FS-510 be more capable...?

Best regards,

-a-

[toto]

4 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Some times flight stream gets shortened to FS...

Would the FS-510 be more capable...?

Best regards,

-a-

The 210 has a built-in AHRS, which the 510 does not. Otherwise they're equivalent. The 210 is a standalone unit, and the 510 fits in an SD slot on a GTN. 

ETA: Oh, and the database concierge works only on the 510. So maybe db concierge and AHRS offset?

[Toolman]

Congrats Dominikos on pursuing your instrument endorsement! I don't post much just read here a lot. After this post I will probably never post again from the backlash. I have a M20C with nearly same set up as you. my 430 is WAAS but big deal a LPV and LNAV are both non-precision approaches one just gets you to a lower MDA; that can hurt early on if your not trained well! So youll probably do LNAV and ILSs. My recommendation is to add the FS210 and get your endorsement first. Reasoning is this will reduce your workload programing the GPS and it has a AHRS as a backup. I fly with my 430 and a iPAD for situational awareness. I still fly my steam gauges out of necessity (cost) til I upgrade. I fly a lot of SPIFR also and do just fine. Its taxing but doable. Your biggest investment is you: your proficiency and comfort level! I've landed with my gyro spinning because it failed in flight and hardly noticed. I rarely use it I crosscheck crosscheck crosscheck Altitude heading airspeed trim track. All the electronics do the same thing for you; display that information but they add stuff that makes it easier. Depends on what you like on displays and how much you can afford to spend so I'm waiting to upgrade but still enjoying my Mooney.

All cars do the same thing: get you where you need to go. Learn to drive then pick out your color model and options

My point is don't spend a butt ton of money and find out that you hate flying in the clouds (instruments) then have the best VFR cockpit money can buy. Go try it determine your "wants" then decide; you have what you need already. Also I wouldn't worry to much about your AutoPilot functioning now if your CFII is any good you won't get to use it

[Brian E.]

On 1/21/2021 at 1:56 PM, Lance Link said:

Got it.  It seems that the advantage of the GI 275s is cost.  (And I neglected to mention that with a G3X one would absolutely want a back up AI like a G5). 

Sorry for the late reply--the G3X STC requires a standalone AI (G5).  I rarely look at it aside from using it to easily set the altimeter but it is certainly handy with the battery backup should you have any electrical issues.

Having gone through this process a year ago and wanting to upgrade in stages I realized it was better to pay/cry once. versus the additive staged improvement process and the associated downtime.  While I was an EFB warrior to start I find the SA offered through an integrated system improves my flying and safety 10 fold over an EFB even in VMC.

 

  Congratulations and good luck--go spend some of that stimulus money on your Moonship!

[carusoam]

4 hours ago, Toolman said:

After this post I will probably never post again from the backlash.

Now what...?

No backlash....

Does that mean you will post again?

Or is it too early to tell?

There isn’t much backlash after taking time to write a thoughtful post...

-a-

[rbridges]

On 1/19/2021 at 12:03 PM, dominikos said:

Folks, a lot of good information, some of it I cannot fully appreciate just starting IFR training. I included the pictures of my current panel.  

Besides a digital engine monitor and a storm scope, mine looked very similar. I added the aspen panels later. My scan changed, and it took some practice getting used to it. No biggie though. 

[gsxrpilot]

I wouldn't consider a GI275 until they fix the GPSS toggle sequence. They say it's a software thing and will be changed in an upcoming update. But at the moment toggling the GPSS on/off is about 5 menus deep in that little touch screen. If you fly IFR, that's a deal breaker. I'd wait to see their solution.

[slowflyin]

On 1/24/2021 at 6:41 PM, donkaye said:

JPI has good products, but I just flew a Bravo from Minden to Napa that had the EDM 900.   I would need a magnifying glass to see some of the numbers.  Very uncomfortable for me trying to read them compared to the larger numbers of the MVP 50.

Apples and Oranges.   The 930 might be a better comparison.   Still may not measure up but at least you would be comparing like units.  

[dominikos]

5 hours ago, Toolman said:

Congrats Dominikos on pursuing your instrument endorsement! I don't post much just read here a lot. After this post I will probably never post again from the backlash. I have a M20C with nearly same set up as you. my 430 is WAAS but big deal a LPV and LNAV are both non-precision approaches one just gets you to a lower MDA; that can hurt early on if your not trained well! So youll probably do LNAV and ILSs. My recommendation is to add the FS210 and get your endorsement first. Reasoning is this will reduce your workload programing the GPS and it has a AHRS as a backup. I fly with my 430 and a iPAD for situational awareness. I still fly my steam gauges out of necessity (cost) til I upgrade. I fly a lot of SPIFR also and do just fine. Its taxing but doable. Your biggest investment is you: your proficiency and comfort level! I've landed with my gyro spinning because it failed in flight and hardly noticed. I rarely use it I crosscheck crosscheck crosscheck Altitude heading airspeed trim track. All the electronics do the same thing for you; display that information but they add stuff that makes it easier. Depends on what you like on displays and how much you can afford to spend so I'm waiting to upgrade but still enjoying my Mooney.

All cars do the same thing: get you where you need to go. Learn to drive then pick out your color model and options

My point is don't spend a butt ton of money and find out that you hate flying in the clouds (instruments) then have the best VFR cockpit money can buy. Go try it determine your "wants" then decide; you have what you need already. Also I wouldn't worry to much about your AutoPilot functioning now if your CFII is any good you won't get to use it

Toolman, thank you for your response. And I don’t think you will hear many disagreements from the folks on the forum. I started my training two months back and I do see value of those recommendations. To be frank, it’s not the flying that has been challenging but the volume of information and challenge of putting it all together. I’m getting there but it has been a bit uphill journey.

Mooney itself has been doing well. My CFII is a retired airline pilot and he is very much believer in old school build up of skills. So far, went through holds, non-precision VOR and GPS approaches. And he has been very complimentary of how stable the plane is.

Regarding my panel options, not 100% landed on this but my way forward (as of today) is to wait for Dynon certifying its AP for Mooney. I just cannot make the numbers work for Garmin - as I would have to upgrade quite a few components and add engine monitor. Till then, I thought I would hold out with any major upgrades but start baby steps in the right direction. This unfortunately means no engine monitor but I plan to swap out Garmin 430 with IFD 440 (integrates with iPad) and add Dynon D3 as a backup for vacuum instruments. It seems to be the most sensible way forward. 

Looking forward to more of your posts.

[dominikos]

here is a brief update on where this is landing for me… I would love to hear feedback, especially if I’m heading in a completely wrong direction

I did quite a lot of research on options - GI275s, G3X and Dynon. Which ever direction I look, it’s a significant commitment. Surprisingly, both GI275s (old panel) and G3X (new panel) end up costing pretty much the same - this includes: EIS, new audio panel, new radio, upgraded GPS, ADS-B In/Out and AutoPilot (GFC 500).

For those of you interested, those are the prices that I got quoted:

• GI275s, old panel: 65AMUs
• G3X, new panel: 70AMUs
• Dynon HDX, new panel: 44 AMUs including autopilot installation when/if gets certified

Everybody suggests that doing upgrade at the same time is the optimal option.

Given the costs, I came up with low budget option to last me for the next 2-3 years and help me to bridge to the target:

• upgrade non WaaS GPS - GNS 430 to GNS 430W + FS 210: 4 AMUs
• install JPI 900 with Cies senders (part of fuel tank reseal): 8 - 10 AMUs
• keep vacuum pump, use iPad as backup AI paired to FS 210 with Sentry as a backup

The beauty of this option is that it does not commit me to the future path. I can still go either garmin or Dynon, the only downside is that it would increase Dynon option cost by 4 AMUs and I would spend extra 1.5 AMUs for FS 210 that is going to be a regret spend but most likely I can recover part of it.

This option keeps my current panel going for the next 2-3 years, allows me to see what options are available in a few years and save up some more money to do big upgrade at once.

Any thoughts, big downsides to kicking the upgrade can down the road?

Thanks, Dominik