Piper Rejects Mooney Design

[Jerry 5TJ]

I’ve been reading “Mr. Piper and His Cubs” by Devon Francis, which I found at a used book sale.  In the book I ran across a description of the management at Piper considering an upgrade to their product line. It considered buying a new low wing 4 place design from Al Mooney.....

[Missile=Awesome]

Not only on the internet, but in a book so it must be true...

[Guest]

The prototype had Mooney like gear with pucks instead of oleos.

Clarence

[Boilermonkey]

Fascinating.  Now a days he'd just Zoom or Tweet from his hospital bed to his engineers.  (not sure that is good or bad)

[EricJ]

18 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The prototype had Mooney like gear with pucks instead of oleos.

Clarence

That's interesting.   I'm not surprised they switched.

I helped a hangar neighbor thread some stuff through the nosewheel well on his Comanche 250, and spent several minute on my back staring up into the nose well while holding one end of a fastener.   I have to say it has the simplest actuation/steering/articulation I think I've ever seen in a retractable gear airplane.   I was wondering why they're not all made like that.

[drapo]

Two Urban Legend or facts....

1- Al Mooney was once stranded in Lock Haven with his first M20 and Pug Piper offered him his hangar to shelter it. Rumour has it that is where he got the design for the door on his Cherokee line....

2- The electric motor driving the Commanche gear system is the same one that was driving Pontiac's Bonneville electric windows...

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, drapo said:

Two Urban Legend or facts....

1- Al Mooney was once stranded in Lock Haven with his first M20 and Pug Piper offered him his hangar to shelter it. Rumour has it that is where he got the design for the door on his Cherokee line....

2- The electric motor driving the Commanche gear system is the same one that was driving Pontiac's Bonneville electric windows...

 

I’ll have to correct those old wives tails, with more misinformation,

Piper copied the Mooney while it overnighted in Lockhaven, they just corrected many of the errors, including those punny engines.

The Gear motor is supposed to have been from an electric seat Out of a Cadillac.

Clarence

[DonMuncy]

Clarence,

If you weren't such a nice guy and so helpful to all of us, we wouldn't tolerate you.

[PT20J]

Well, I always heard that Pug wanted to buy the M20 design and Al flew one to Lock Haven and he and Pug had lunch but couldn't agree on a deal. Meanwhile, Piper engineers were all over the M20 with cameras and tape measures. If you lay the two planforms on top of each other, they are uncannily similar. Except for the tail, where Piper went with the trendy swept fin and John Thorp's influence was evident in the stabilator. And, they are both too complicated and have too many parts. I think the Cherokee was a vast improvement in simplicity -- except for the pilot seat adjustment which must have been done by a new-grad engineer on a Friday just before "Miller-Time" (That's Moosehead Time for you, Clarence ;-)

Skip

[chriscalandro]

How dare anyone say the Mooney is cramped!  I'm 9ft 17 and I fit in my mooney just fine.  If you don't fit you must be doing it wrong.

 

I am offended and will not tolerate such slander.

[Missile=Awesome]

Some people move on.  Some people just stay butt hurt.  Poor little precious ones.  I would pity them if I cared...

[tls pilot]

Pictured below is the first Piper Comanche PA-24 s/n 001

It was manufactured in 1956, the A/W date 1962

It is the same plane pictured with the Mooney Discs ( Lord biscuits)

The paper work shows it. But the factory changed them out a few months latter to oleo struts.

My friend owns it and refurbished it over the last two years. He now owns two Comanche’s.

He formally worked at the factory and really did a great job getting the plane back into the air

Over the last few years I would assist him whenever I visited, it was ironic this post and pic occurred 

while I was here and watched #1 ( as we refer to it) fly!

The first flight was last weekend, a flight I saw while visting Lock Haven PA

The picture is from today...I should have snapped one last week while the fall folliage was flamming!

 

An aside, for anyone looking for a scenic but somewhat tricky airport, KLHV Lock Haven is the place!

The airport is right in the town, on the east side, between the mountain and the river.

Friendly folks, the Piper Factory still stands as a repurposed building for other companies, but the

Piper Museum remains in the final assembly area and is well worth visiting.

Superb cuisine is a two block walk from the 09 threshold and the Piper Museum at 

The Village Tavern. An Italian family run restaurant run by Angela Kay Caprio.

She makes homemade ravioli ( I pressed them closed with the fork several times this week)

Homemade everything... including Braciole, soups, and even steaks, veal, burgers!

If you do not wish to walk, the FBO will transport you for free and pick you up when ready,

just a phone call away and a 5 minute ride at best.

As long as Im mentioning Lock Haven, Sentimental Journey (in June) is an awesome fly in and get together

(even if it is a Piper Flyin, Cubs mostly) always a few Mooneys will be seen on the field.

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by tls pilot
pic

[carusoam]

Great details, TLC..!

Got any pics of Angela Kay’s/your handy work?

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

It nice to see the first of the breed saved.  It looks beautiful!

Clarence

[tls pilot]

As requested here is a small sample

[hammdo]

Damn, I’m hungry!

-Don

[1001001]

31 minutes ago, hammdo said:

Damn, I’m hungry!

-Don

I'll second that!  I have friends in the area at LHV but I've never gotten to eat there.  On my list for my next trip!

[steingar]

A little physics gentlemen.  Were the Mooney cabin less "cramped" (hey, I'm a midget, and I have complaints whatsoever.  If you do sucks for you) it would have to be larger in one or more dimensions.  For it to be larger in one or more dimensions inside it would have to be larger outside.  And we all know what happens when airplanes get fat, they don't go as fast unless you give them bigger engines.  And what point is a Mooney that doesn't go fast?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

A little physics gentlemen.  Were the Mooney cabin less "cramped" (hey, I'm a midget, and I have complaints whatsoever.  If you do sucks for you) it would have to be larger in one or more dimensions.  For it to be larger in one or more dimensions inside it would have to be larger outside.  And we all know what happens when airplanes get fat, they don't go as fast unless you give them bigger engines.  And what point is a Mooney that doesn't go fast?

“Fat” is only one measure.  My Comanche may be bigger dimensionally in the cabin than a Mooney, but it weighs significantly less, even with the IO-720 engine.  As a result it carries weights a Mooney can only dream of.

Clarence

[Hank]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

“Fat” is only one measure.  My Comanche may be bigger dimensionally in the cabin than a Mooney, but it weighs significantly less, even with the IO-720 engine.  As a result it carries weights a Mooney can only dream of.

Clarence

The weight of full fuel in my M20-C is less than one third of my useful load (312 out of 969 lb). I'll bet in your Comanche 400, full fuel is well over half. 

And I'll get honest 4-1/2 hour range with well over an hour's reserve (more like 1-1/2 hours remaining).    Not the range of a J, but it ain't fuel injected, either.

[steingar]

14 hours ago, M20Doc said:

“Fat” is only one measure.  My Comanche may be bigger dimensionally in the cabin than a Mooney, but it weighs significantly less, even with the IO-720 engine.  As a result it carries weights a Mooney can only dream of.

Clarence

Your Comanche only goes fast because it has a big engine burning more gas.  The Comanches with the O360 were dogs in cruise and have roughly the same payload as the Mooney.  Sorry, there is no free lunch.