Insurance creep

[mike_elliott]

4 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Where did that edit button go?

Here's what Treck wrote:  "unfortunately no, this is not something we would consider as there would be too much liability for this. the GPS antenna signal is not always a "3D DIFF NAV" which is the most precise level and even then can give a vertical error of up to 10 feet. in the event that the signal was not this level this error could be greater and still would not offer much of a solution."

Foreflight, flyQ, wingx and the like could easily add a 500' AGL check gear annunciation to their software also.

[Pasturepilot]

2 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Foreflight, flyQ, wingx and the like could easily add a 500' AGL check gear annunciation to their software also.

I made the 500' callout my trigger for a last check. It's a holdover from about 6,000 hours of flying with a similar trigger/action. 

So "500' AGL" on foreflight now triggers a callout to me of "No Flags, Gear Checked Down, Cleared to Land" Makes me check the CDI to ensure I'm getting a good signal if on an instument approach, green light on the panel, and that I have landing clearance if at a towered airport. 

Foolproof? no. But a step in the right direction. 

[kpaul]

2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Foreflight, flyQ, wingx and the like could easily add a 500' AGL check gear annunciation to their software also.

My Foreflight, connected to a Stratus, already does this, I get the callout through my Bluetooth headset.  Also my Garmin Aera 660 which is wired into my audio panel does as well.  They make the announcement within a few seconds of each other.

[carusoam]

1) Gus, great input from the Trek letter...

If looking for the edit button... it seems to be hiding behind the three “...”

 

 

2) Mike, the reference for a $20 box, is manufacturing cost... sales price, post FAA approval... expect 2amu... 

3) Reading the POH is a great idea... but even when that is done in the morning... the human brain still fails later in the day...  due to the magic of distraction.

4) ‘distraction’ is still the wrong word to best describe what happens during moments of cognitive overload...

5) Automating things that change configuration for items that change lift or drag...   I would want to be a plane builder, not just a PP... 
 

6) plane builders would have to consider things like power out, landing, over water...  where a simple landing, instantly turns turtle...

7) automated beeeeeps have been turned off in my plane... nothing makes a passenger more nervous than not understanding the alarm....during The elevated stressful moments that occur in the landing pattern...

A pleasant sounding “500 feet” would be infinitely friendlier... and fine if it came out at 550’ or 450’

PP thoughts only, not a plane builder...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[ArtVandelay]

We might as well add Garmin’s auto land capability. But unlike the arrow I would give a warning before dropping the gear so pilot can override. Maybe base it on GPS altitude instead of throttle position.


Tom

[RobertGary1]

16 hours ago, MikeOH said:

How much more was an Arrow with the auto-extend vs. one without?  Do we want to ELIMINATE gear-ups?  What level of gear-ups do you find okay?  People are going to ignore the verbal warnings just like the horns and buzzers.  I don't think it's going to be the panacea that you hope it to be.

Not sure the Arrow cost much more but I do know that I'm not expecting to fly my Mooney to a shop and install this fancy new system for just a couple hundred bucks out the door. Based on my current rates maybe I'd save $100/yr, maybe possibly $200/yr but my rate is already pretty low. Maybe for a student pilot it would make more of a difference. Even for something as cheap as $2,000 installed you're talking 10-20 years to recover.

As a CFI I've sat there as the gear horn was going off looking at the pilot wondering when they'll notice it. But I have never sat there with Betty saying "Check landing gear" and the pilot not noticing it. The biggest issue with the existing gear warning system is it sounds too similar to the stall horn or even a buzz on the radio in my opinion. There is a reason airline and the military went to voice annunciation.

 

-Robert

[Ron McBride]

17 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Those situations are what the override was for.

Would eliminating gear-ups offset the few situations you describe?

What's the data show for those Arrows?  Anyone know how many Arrows with the auto-extend have landed gear up?  I'll bet it's NONE. (Mechanical failures excepted)

I think it failed to 'catch-on' because 'real' pilots didn't like a decision being made for them.  Even though the system was better at it than they were! 

I watched an Arrow almost land gear up, at least it got one down in time.  John Wayne airport, no obstacle, they just goofed.   
 

Also what happens when you need to land gear up??

 

[neilpilot]

28 minutes ago, Ron McBride said:

Also what happens when you need to land gear up??

Deactivate auto-extend or pull gear motor breaker?

[Immelman]

Of the 4 big expensive aircraft I am type rated in, how many drop the gear on you automatically? Oh right, none of them.

But you know what. This is why I pay for hull coverage. To transfer the risk to the insurance company. Maybe one day I will screw up and gear-up an airplane. I am not God's gift to aviation and I have not made my last mistake in an airplane. Do I ever want a gear up landing? No. But am I stressed out about it? No, they don't usually end in physical harm. So about that insurance..

 

SPEAKING of insurance, Avemco. Called back to see what other discounts could be applied. Now the quote is within $200. Then they start lowering your rate after no claims. Two years from now, Avemco is at parity with what my renewal came back at this year.

"So if I had been an avemco customer 5 years ago, can you estimate how my premium would have changed in that period with no claims?"

"It wouldn't have"

Sees like it may be time to make a switch.

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Immelman

[RobertGary1]

I didn't know Avemco did that. I just renewed my police. I did ask Avemco for a quote but it was $500 more than my other quote so I ignored it. But I've not had an at fault claim in 20+ years. Have had a couple not-at-fault claims.

 

-Robert

[MooneyMitch]

2 hours ago, Ron McBride said:

I watched an Arrow almost land gear up, at least it got one down in time.  John Wayne airport, no obstacle, they just goofed.   
 

Also what happens when you need to land gear up??

 

What happens is your Mooney stops very fast while making all sorts of hurtful scraping and grinding noises..... oh yes, the propellor stops spinning quite rapidly too !!

If you’d like to know how I know that, you’re more than welcome to ask me .

[MikeOH]

11 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

This is not the direction taken by the big commercial operators.

Correct.  They have ATPs, mandatory recurrent training, and a co-pilot.

I don't think we want that, either.

In the context of existing vintage (read, relatively low cost) aircraft, warning systems are about all that will be economically feasible.

However, if the goal is really to stop gear-ups, relinquishing the right to screw up is going to be mandatory; acceptance of a auto-extend system would accomplish that goal for new aircraft.  Could you dream up some scenario where it would fail?  Yeah, probably...but we'd be in the noise for gear-ups.

[Mooneymite]

39 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Correct.  They have ATPs, mandatory recurrent training, and a co-pilot.

Actually, I was referring to EGPWS...the technological solution to preventing gear up landings.

[LANCECASPER]

My coverage through Global ($170K hull/$1mil/$200K sublimits) in 2019 was $1949. The renewal came back last month for $2544, a 30% increase. Old Republic quoted same overage at $2244 (15% increase) or $2435 with $200K Hull.

[MikeOH]

Global as well. $70K Hull/$1mil/$100K

2018.   $1059

2019.   $1197

2020.  $1528

[Missile=Awesome]

US AIG 12%...

No modifications in hull coverage or liability.

[Hank]

12 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Global as well. $70K Hull/$1mil/$100K

2018.   $1059

2019.   $1197

2020.  $1528

That's a pretty good match for mine. I think it was $1502 for $65K/1M/100k.

[RobertGary1]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

That's a pretty good match for mine. I think it was $1502 for $65K/1M/100k.

Moi aussi. Within a hundred bucks of my tracking.

 

-Robert

[DXB]

Ugh just got my 66% increase this year with Global, brokered by Falcon.  Am still in my 40s, no claims in last year, instrument current, 900 hrs total time, 3rd class medical, fly regularly

[Missile=Awesome]

1 hour ago, DXB said:

Ugh just got my 66% increase this year with Global, brokered by Falcon.  Am still in my 40s, no claims in last year, instrument current, 900 hrs total time, 3rd class medical, fly regularly

They are telling you to “go away”...

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, DXB said:

Ugh just got my 66% increase this year with Global, brokered by Falcon.  Am still in my 40s, no claims in last year, instrument current, 900 hrs total time, 3rd class medical, fly regularly

That’s par for the course for low risk pilots with high time. At one point rates were crazy low. I was paying more to insure my old car. But now the competition for low risk pilots seems to have died out with several underwriters leaving. 

[DXB]

8 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

That’s par for the course for low risk pilots with high time. At one point rates were crazy low. I was paying more to insure my old car. But now the competition for low risk pilots seems to have died out with several underwriters leaving. 

Yeah I suspect you're right. I don't really understand the insurance market even after this lengthy thread.  I do get that that vast scale of the 737Max debacle must have far-ranging ripple effects and that loss of market competition is always bad for the consumer.

[Parker_Woodruff]

1 hour ago, DXB said:

Yeah I suspect you're right. I don't really understand the insurance market even after this lengthy thread.  I do get that that vast scale of the 737Max debacle must have far-ranging ripple effects and that loss of market competition is always bad for the consumer.

That and light aircraft insurance has been a loss leader for quite some time.

[mike_elliott]

2 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

That and light aircraft insurance has been a loss leader for quite some time.

Its those dang commissions

[thinwing]

On 11/5/2020 at 6:00 AM, LANCECASPER said:

My coverage through Global ($170K hull/$1mil/$200K sublimits) in 2019 was $1949. The renewal came back last month for $2544, a 30% increase. Old Republic quoted same overage at $2244 (15% increase) or $2435 with $200K Hull.

global 2019 ..2800 /270 k hull....2020 qoute 4100...avemco allowing 4 equal payments 4300....i went with avemco