First time buyer

[chrisinorf]

Good morning.  First post, student pilot and first time buyer.  Retired Navy, former F-14/F-18 mechanic, pursuing my dream to fly.  I found a Mooney online in the next state and reached out to the owner.  He informed me that he is just wrapping up an annual on it.  His home-base is 30 minutes from 2 Mooney Service Centers.  Would it be realistic to ask him to fly it to an MSC for a pre-buy inspection or should the annual suffice?  Trying to understand the buyer and seller's perspective.

[JPA]

I would do the pre buy inspection. I wish you the best!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MB65E]

Morning Chris! Welcome.

Lots of opinions here. Not a bad idea in theory. If the guy is agreeable to it that might work. There is a lot of owners that wont let an MSC even look at their airplane. Since they are so close you are lucky. Maybe he’s used on in the past. 
Most of the peering eyes here on MS can give a good assessment of the aircraft for free! Lol.

Whatever happens, I’m sure the Mooney will be easier to maintenance than the F14! ;-)
 

Good plan,

-Matt

[GeeBee]

NEVER accept an annual as a pre buy, especially and annual done by some one else for someone else other than you. (The buyer of the annual rules). Take the airplane to someone who has no connection in the past and have a pre-buy. If one of those MSC fit the bill, fine. Just make sure you are getting an independent and uninvolved opinion on the airplane. Distance should be reasonable, but do not let that stop you from getting it to a place where it needs to be.

 

 

[toto]

Couple thoughts..

1. An annual and a prebuy are different things, but you can potentially combine them and save a little money: Have your selected shop do the prebuy but leave inspection panels open, interior out, etc. Go over the prebuy report with them and discuss findings. If you decide that this airplane is right for you, then you can complete the sale before authorizing the shop to proceed with the annual (at this point, it's your plane). If the prebuy doesn't go well, you just have the shop button the plane back up and return it to the seller. 

2.  A Mooney might be a lot of airplane for a primary trainer. There are arguments on both sides of this, and lots of previous threads on MS with good discussion. 

 

... As a side note, since you're an experienced mechanic you're probably far better than most of us at determining shop quality and competence. It may be less of a dice roll for you than it feels for me when dealing with new-to-me people and new-to-me airplanes. 

[toto]

7 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Take the airplane to someone who has no connection in the past and have a pre-buy.

Yep, +100 on this. Even if the best shop in the world has been doing the maintenance, you'll want an independent opinion on the prebuy. The most well-intentioned among us will overlook our own flaws

[ArtVandelay]

I would ask for a ride first, ask the owner to briefly demonstrate the various avionics, which will not be touched during an annual, especially the autopilot. Be good to see it work from an owner perspective.
Then have the prebuy focus on truly expensive:
Corrosion, especially the main spar.
Engine unless it’s a runout.
Fill the tanks, make sure they don’t leak.

[chrisinorf]

Thanks for the advice.  After reading about the one guy who found out his wing spar was corroded after his purchase was feeling a little hesitant about older planes.

[Oldguy]

Always pre-buy the plane as well as the owner. You can tell pretty quickly if they are a person who defers maintenance or takes care of something before it becomes a big problem.

Never use the previous mechanic who has done work on the plane for the pre-buy. I doubt they would bring up anything since they have signed off on the plane, and different eyes see different things.

And before you move forward with anything, decide if this is the plane you want for the mission you have. It may be a bit much to ask at this point, but what do you want to do with this plane? Some of us started with our first plane before we spent the money on our "forever" plane. (Dated other planes before we got married to our current Mooney.)

@gsxrpilot and others have put together lists of what they prioritize in a plane when they went shopping for one. My wants were specific enough I could dismiss several that seemed to meet my needs, but did not check off enough boxes to grab my interest.

Good luck, and welcome aboard!

[chrisinorf]

15 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

Always pre-buy the plane as well as the owner. You can tell pretty quickly if they are a person who defers maintenance or takes care of something before it becomes a big problem.

Never use the previous mechanic who has done work on the plane for the pre-buy. I doubt they would bring up anything since they have signed off on the plane, and different eyes see different things.

And before you move forward with anything, decide if this is the plane you want for the mission you have. It may be a bit much to ask at this point, but what do you want to do with this plane? Some of us started with our first plane before we spent the money on our "forever" plane. (Dated other planes before we got married to our current Mooney.)

@gsxrpilot and others have put together lists of what they prioritize in a plane when they went shopping for one. My wants were specific enough I could dismiss several that seemed to meet my needs, but did not check off enough boxes to grab my interest.

Good luck, and welcome aboard!

Thanks.  Mission:  Wake up in the morning and go flying without having to rent.  Would like to travel and visit places/relatives without having to worry about the airline's schedule or traffic on the ground, sometimes with the girlfriend or sons.  Live like Jimmy Buffet in the Caribbean.  Attend Oshkosh.  Go to distant places for a day or two trip.  I bought 2 laundromats before I retired from the Navy, so I don't really work anymore and have a lot of free time.

[toto]

39 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

Always pre-buy the plane as well as the owner. You can tell pretty quickly if they are a person who defers maintenance or takes care of something before it becomes a big problem.

I'll add to this: If the plane is hangared, prebuy the hangar as well. It's amazing how closely the state of someone's hangar correlates with the state of their airplane. 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Take the airplane to someone who has no connection in the past and have a pre-buy. 

 

 

Sorry but I’ll have to disagree.  Should a competent maintainer be disqualified from doing the PPI just because they did an Annual on the plane in the past?  Sure if they are the current maintainer, but if they haven’t seen the plane for a few years why not.  I’d like to think that as a professional I’d be objective in my inspection and assessment of the plane.

Clarence

[KLRDMD]

7 hours ago, Oldguy said:

Always pre-buy the plane as well as the owner.

It is more important to do a "pre-buy" on the owner. I've only done a pre-buy inspection on maybe half of the airplanes I've bought, the last four I did not. However, I've done a "pre-buy" on every owner.

[Ross Taylor]

8 hours ago, chrisinorf said:

After reading about the one guy who found out his wing spar was corroded after his purchase was feeling a little hesitant about older planes.

There's no problem with an older plane, if it's in good shape still...and the only way to know is by looking in all the places and doing a thorough inspection.  If there's problematic corrosion, that should be identified during the inspection.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, chrisinorf said:

Good morning.  First post, student pilot and first time buyer.  Retired Navy, former F-14/F-18 mechanic, pursuing my dream to fly.  I found a Mooney online in the next state and reached out to the owner.  He informed me that he is just wrapping up an annual on it.  His home-base is 30 minutes from 2 Mooney Service Centers.  Would it be realistic to ask him to fly it to an MSC for a pre-buy inspection or should the annual suffice?  Trying to understand the buyer and seller's perspective.

I’ve posted the PPI checklist I use in the Downloads section above under safety and Techniques, it might be helpful to you.  As there are no standards for a PPI other than what you and the maintainer agree to, you have to educate yourself.

My opinion is that every removable cover should come off for the inspection, the interior removed etc.  You can complete and AD search on the FAA site, all SB’s and SI’s are on the Mooney site, most Lycoming engine one are on the Lycoming site.

Clarence

[skydvrboy]

Your mission sounds like mine when I bought my plane. I wanted something that would fly, carry me, my wife, and two kids, and fit my limited budget. I also wanted to get the best value I could.  I looked at a TriPacer, a Piper Warrior, and my Mooney. I settled on the Mooney based on fuel economy. I didn’t know a C from a J from an O... I just knew there was enough legroom that someone my size could fit in the backseat. In hindsight, I realize I basically won the lottery by stumbling into this plane!

[carusoam]

If Clarence is doing the maintenance... a PPI would be redundant... sort of...

Not every plane has had that luxury...

Lets look at what the PPI is intended to do...  its primary mission is to protect the buyer’s wallet...

So... a plane that has been serviced at a reputable maintainer is a very low risk...

How will the buyer know that?

It helps if they are MSer #1000 or less....

Essentially... the buyer takes the plane to a reputable resource, and pays for something that at best... is a complete waste of AMU...

Buyer goes away disappointed about the money spent on the PPI... but now is the new owner of a plane with a very clean bill of health...

What if... Jim was selling his flying lawn mower... after it left an MxC (hidden name), person comes along to buy the plane and skips the PPI... and gets saddled with extra pain in the neck...  have no fear... Jim has always made things right...

 

Long way to go... to say...    

• PPI is to protect the wallet from quirky things that are never expected.... and shouldn’t ever happen...
• Independent of the prior maintenance chain...

Independence of the prior maintenance chain is interesting... there are different ways things can get missed... so putting the same thing under a different light, looked at by different eyes... may see things that were otherwise missed...

Expect success, but know some weird things occur beyond the knowledge of the owner, or the current maintainer....

more of a try extra hard to find something I can use for a discount... than expecting somebody is hiding something intentionally....

Either way... when spending house Money... don’t accidentally get an imperfect plane...

If spending car money... up the Ante, take some risk... the PPI may not be as stringent...

So...

If my friends at GMax are selling an Acclaim... that was maintained at my favorite MSC in Canada...

Would I really take it to an MSC in NC for a PPI..?

Yes! Without question... the bird costs more than my house... a simple Corrosion problem could pop up between annuals... or just a Comm or nav system isn’t working correctly...

If it just left Canada with its annual completed yesterday... before it went up for sale...   my PPI is still going to focus on non-annual things... the 100amu panel needs to be checked out before I pay for the machine...
 

As a business man, this removes as much emotion as possible from buying a machine... it is a cost of doing business...  I will feel much better, that I did the homework...

Look for Ken... he takes the opposite side of this coin... and has purchased many more planes than I ever will...
 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...
 

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

Remember, despite who is doing the maintenance (Max, Doc, ...), some maintenance is optional. Example, If the autopilot doesn’t work, the AP will never know. Has any corrosion prevention been done recently? Fuel leaks that only occurs when tanks are filled. Etc, etc

[V1VRV2]

6 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

It is more important to do a "pre-buy" on the owner. I've only done a pre-buy inspection on maybe half of the airplanes I've bought, the last four I did not. However, I've done a "pre-buy" on every owner.

How did that turn out for you?  Not being a smart @ss either. As a fishing charter business owner who hired captains I learned quickly to ask during the interview to have a look at the prospective new hires car. How they treated their car was how they were going to take care of the boat. Direct correlation every time! 

[larrynimmo]

One thing not mentioned...you need to removed the pilots side plastic side panel and inspect the steel frame for corrosion...if it is excessive, plane will be unairworthy soon

[1001001]

Based on my own experience and the experience of friends who have bought, flown, and maintained more airplanes than I ever will, always do a pre purchase inspection.  There are hidden things that may never be caught during an annual, especially an annual done by the same shop that did it last year, and the year before, etc.

When I bought my 201 last year, it was right at the end of its annual and needed a new one.  My choices were 1) have the regular maintenance guy do the annual and accept it, or 2) pay for a PPI at a shop of my choosing.  The owner had to get a ferry permit to fly it to my shop (risky for him!).  I specified that the shop use the LASAR PPI checklist, which they quoted at 25 hours of labor.  I paid for the PPI, and gave the owners the option to convert it to an annual at their expense.  The findings in the PPI were worth the cost of the 25 hours easily.  The owners agreed to fix all the squawks (a couple of which were major--like a bent nose gear truss, damaged gear actuator gearbox, etc.).  I agreed to pay for new brakes and a couple of other items.

Without a PPI, I would have been stuck with all of that expense, and in the case of the gear actuator (which LASAR said was only a few cycles away from giving out totally), quite probably the cost of a gear up landing, engine overhaul, prop replacement, etc. within the first year of flying.

I ended up buying that airplane, because I and my shop now know it very well and we're convinced it is a good and safe airplane.

 

Don't skip the PPI, and have it done at a shop of your choosing.

Edited June 28, 2020 by 1001001

[glafaille]

First thing I do is check the FAA Aircraft Registration Website to check for possible damage history and ownership issues.  Watch out for partnerships as they can sometimes be awkward to deal with.  Write down any damage history and be sure the plane you are interested in is the same one you are reading about online.  Next, I visit flightaware to see how much the plane has flown the past couple of months,  10 hours per month is good, 2 hours per month not so good, no flights at all could be a problem (depends on ADS-B capability of aircraft).

Next, I visit the FAA AD database and print all the ADs that exist on the aircraft model I am looking at.  I read each one and make notes about what they are and which planes or accessories they apply to.  Note the recurring ones and their frequency.

Realize one important thing about airplanes, owners and annual inspections.  Owners are cheap and IAs have to stay in business by not making owners mad.  Trust but verify.  I find errors in logbooks almost every time I look at one.  IAs DO NOT usually research logbooks and ADs back to the beginning.  When they sign off ADs they are just signing off that no ADs have slipped through since the last annual.  If an IA skipped an AD 20 years before it likely will be missed from that point on.

When you buy an older plane you are buying it’s history and it’s flaws, as well as it’s future so next I spend a good 3 hours or more going over the logs, sometimes if I find problems, I may spend 8 hours or more on the logs.  I read every single entry from the date of manufacture forward and write down on a piece of paper every significant event like AD compliance, SB compliance, 337 creation, STCs, modifications, damage, corrosion, painting, equipment changes, engine change, prop change, change of aircraft structure like skins and flight controls etc.  I also check to see that every STC and 337 called out in the logbook is present and then I read all of the 337s.  Missing 337s can be a problem but sometimes not, same with STCs (any change or addition to the aircraft should be recorded in the log and usually generate a 337 or STC). These SHOULD be available from the FAA by ordering online for $15 (takes 2 weeks though).

It’s a lot of trouble but it will really give you a feel for how the airplane has been cared for and how involved the current owner is in the aircraft.  Now you will be ready to talk to the owner and his mechanic about the airplane and how it has been cared for.  Paint, avionics and interior flaws are easily fixed, decades of rubber stamp annuals and shade tree maintenance are not easily fixed and will guarantee an expensive problem down the road.

Never fall in love till AFTER the PPI and NEVER be afraid to WALK if you get a bad feeling about the plane, owner or mechanic.

https://report.myairplane.com

https://flightaware.com

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/airworthiness_directives/

[moontownMooney]

Thanks.  Mission:  Wake up in the morning and go flying without having to rent.  Would like to travel and visit places/relatives without having to worry about the airline's schedule or traffic on the ground, sometimes with the girlfriend or sons.  Live like Jimmy Buffet in the Caribbean.  Attend Oshkosh.  Go to distant places for a day or two trip.  I bought 2 laundromats before I retired from the Navy, so I don't really work anymore and have a lot of free time.

That is a fine mission statement. I want that on a poster!

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[moontownMooney]

I would ask for a ride first, ask the owner to briefly demonstrate the various avionics, which will not be touched during an annual, especially the autopilot. Be good to see it work from an owner perspective.
Then have the prebuy focus on truly expensive:
Corrosion, especially the main spar.
Engine unless it’s a runout.
Fill the tanks, make sure they don’t leak.

This is very valuable/important if doable. There are a lot of things worth a fair amount of money (AP, avionics are good example) that cant easily be well tested on the ground (at least not without specialized equipment your PPI mechanic likely won't have), but can readily run through their typical functions in flight. If you are new to Mooney's it is also a an opportunity for some introduction by the current owner (not a replacement for actual transition training). I think that the extended interaction during flight with the owner builds rappport and gets them to open up about (or attempt to cover up) little nits that would otherwise never even come up.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[KLRDMD]

8 hours ago, V1VRV2 said:

How did that turn out for you?  Not being a smart @ss either. As a fishing charter business owner who hired captains I learned quickly to ask during the interview to have a look at the prospective new hires car. How they treated their car was how they were going to take care of the boat. Direct correlation every time! 

Very well every time except once. I bought an airplane from a guy I had known on an aviation board for a couple of years. He seemed like a good guy and knowledgable and I trusted him. It was a fairly new restoration, new paint, interior, engine overhaul, etc. The restoration was well documented including photography. It had been through a couple of annuals since restoration so it still had low time everything. I found out at the first annual how much was skimped on. It probably cost an extra $10k to get it where it needed to be. 

On the other end of the spectrum, I had a very thorough pre-buy done on a different airplane. The recognized expert on this airplane type did the pre-buy (not a Mooney). He found over $10k worth of work that needed to be done. The seller agreed to do it all. I had the same recognized expert do the first annual after I bought it. It was over $25k.

I'm on my 16th airplane in 18 years. I have the 'N" to have seen airplanes in better and worse shape than all of the data suggested. Unfortunately, someone that buys only one or two airplanes in their life has only one or two experiences which may be very good or very bad.

Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances.