Garmin GFC 500 AP for C, D, E Mooneys

[FlySafe]

PIREP on the GFC500 with auto trim in a 74 M20C....it’s truly incredible. I have the dual G5s with Mu11, GAD29B, IFD440 and optional G5 GPS antenna. Completed ~ 2hrs of test flights and investigating various failure modes. Everything is working out the door as expected. I want to acknowledge appreciation to Freedom Aviation (Jason Moorefield) at KLYH in VA for coming in on quote and time on the job. All the approaches have been to the runway centerlines with needles crossed and the missed approach automation with the GA button is so easy feels like cheating.  If you get this system, your biggest concern will be keeping your hand flying skills sharp which of course you must do. Picture of new panel posted earlier.   Happy flying.

[carusoam]

Great pirep Kurt!

Thanks for sharing the details…

Best regards,

-a-

[FlySafe]

Hi All, Update on the GFC500.  About 2 months with the GFC500 now and it is still impressing me with its ease of use and flight control.  One issue I have noticed and discussed with my installer and Avidyne for the IFD 440  is that on GPS LPV approaches, I'm ~100-200 feet right of course from the FAF to the runway.  This matches with what the G5 HSI is showing.  This problem is restricted to GPS approaches, not ILS.  Avidyne support suggested I disable approach roll gpss steering which my installer did.  After that change, the approach mode on the GFC500 would disengage once LPV mode became active on the IFD when inbound on the approach and revert to nav mode; it was not possible to rearm the AP app mode while inbound and the AP stayed in general GPS nav mode on the PFD. HSI vertical and horizontal nav information continued to be displayed.  I suspect the AP is looking for the approach roll steering input from the IFD when LPV becomes active on the IFD, and when not found, the AP reverts to simple nav mode.  I'll be changing the approach roll steering on the IFD back to enabled this week and give you an update on this issue. thanks

kurt

[Jim Peace]

On 11/15/2021 at 8:13 AM, FlySafe said:

Hi All, Update on the GFC500. 

Sorry you are having these issues.  Its unfortunate that we live in a world today that both manufactures of products of what they claim they can do and installers really dont know WTF will occur when installed in your plane.  You will however get the universal "I apologize" after you bring up your problem and that is supposed to take care of all your wasted time on hold and your countless hours of dealing with waiting around airports or ferrying to shops etc....lets not forget the tens of thousands spent but that is besides the point.....

[Greg Ellis]

21 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

Sorry you are having these issues.  Its unfortunate that we live in a world today that both manufactures of products of what they claim they can do and installers really dont know WTF will occur when installed in your plane.  You will however get the universal "I apologize" after you bring up your problem 

I can empathize/sympathize with this.  I am currently waiting install of a GFC 500 on my 1963 C model.  It was one of the last models approved by Garmin.  However......................Garmin was not aware of different ways these older Mooneys were assembled.  Apparently, there is something different about my Mooney on the trim (apparently a pin configuration) that Garmin was not aware of and the new, so called approved autopilot, will not work on my airplane until the Garmin engineers go back to the drawing board and give my installers the OK.  I read the email from Garmin stating "do not proceed with the install until the engineers have time to review the issue".  That was a good 3 months ago.  My installers are Garmin installers and they do initial installs for Garmin on many different aircraft.  They speak to Garmin every day so I have confidence in my installers.  Garmin???? not sure yet.

[FlySafe]

Thanks Greg and Jim, in spite of this minor problem, I'm still very happy with the results and like the IFD interface.  Will wait and see if the pending IFD software updates helps address this issue. Can always bite the bullet and swap to the GTN down the road maybe after the garmin backorder improves later next year.

[Jim Peace]

1 hour ago, Greg Ellis said:

 Garmin???? not sure yet.

Well did they at least apologize? LOL

[Wes]

The issue with some early models isn't a Garmin issue....as everyone likes to point at the other guy....it's actually a Mooney issue. Mooney actually used 2 different push/pull tube configurations on the early short bodys... pre 64. If you dig deep enough you will see what what the deal is. 

Garmin had no way of knowing this until they were made aware of the issue. A new part was made to solve the issue and is being tested.

They are still leaps and bounds ahead of the other guys...in all catagories.

[Greg Ellis]

11 minutes ago, Wes said:

The issue with some early models isn't a Garmin issue....as everyone likes to point at the other guy....it's actually a Mooney issue. Mooney actually used 2 different push/pull tube configurations on the early short bodys... pre 64. If you dig deep enough you will see what what the deal is. 

Garmin had no way of knowing this until they were made aware of the issue. A new part was made to solve the issue and is being tested.

They are still leaps and bounds ahead of the other guys...in all catagories.

Mooney's fault?  I don't think the engineers that designed Mooney's in the 1960's ever believed that an autopilot would be created to work in them in the 2020's that would require a special configuration.  Don't really think it is anyone's fault and I am glad to hear there is a part under testing.  Sorry if I ruffled feathers.  Not my intention.  I am a Garmin guy.  I was the first pre-64 to put money down with my installers and I am looking forward to the day I get the autopilot.

[danad]

On 11/15/2021 at 7:13 AM, FlySafe said:

Hi All, Update on the GFC500.  About 2 months with the GFC500 now and it is still impressing me with its ease of use and flight control.  One issue I have noticed and discussed with my installer and Avidyne for the IFD 440  is that on GPS LPV approaches, I'm ~100-200 feet right of course from the FAF to the runway.  This matches with what the G5 HSI is showing.  This problem is restricted to GPS approaches, not ILS. 

I have the 540 and experienced a myriad of issues but not this one. Which is why I don’t think a software update will fix it…it should be a common problem if it was a software issue.

I’d check your baud rates, and 429 label type (MapMX has a few options) output from the IFD. If you haven’t, upgrade the G5 and enable logging and check that for clues - it’s a simple CSV. Ditto the avidyne. Good luck and as someone on the avidyne forums told me, don’t accept less than full and correct functioning. It took me 12 weeks from getting the plane back to resolving all install/config issues. 

[FlySafe]

Thanks Danad, i can confirm that the G5 and gfc500 require the IFD to have approach gps roll steering enabled.  Once I turned it back on the app mode on the gfc worked again for lpv approaches, still occasinoaly right of course in last 500 ft AGL of approach. I'll check the baud rate next.  The g5 has the latest software, any thoughts as to what the baud rate and 429 MapMX slabel type should be? Thank you!

k

[FlySafe]

 

On 11/20/2021 at 12:50 PM, danad said:

I’d check your baud rates, and 429 label type (MapMX has a few options) output from the IFD

danad, can you tell me what baud setting and MapMx option you are using with your 540? thanks

kurt

[danad]

11 hours ago, FlySafe said:

 

danad, can you tell me what baud setting and MapMx option you are using with your 540? thanks

kurt

I will be back out at the plane Friday, weather permitting, if you have more questions. 

G5

RS232 - input MapMX, output none, baud 38400

ARINC429 - input 1: Garmin gps (SDI 1), input 2: Garmin VOR/ILS (SDI 1) 

 

Avidyne

Main ARINC 429 -

in 3: low, off;

out 3: low, off,

SDI: LNAV 1

 

Main system config - Appr Roll Steer: enabled

 

Main RS232 - 

CHNL 1: off, MapMX

CHNL 2: Off, Aviation

CHNL 3: transponder stuff

rest not set

 

Main ARINC 429 -

in 1: low, EFIS/Airdata

in 2: Low, Off

Out 1: low, GAMA 429 Graphics

out 2: low, off

SDI: LNAV 1

VNAV: Enable Labels

 

proceed with caution, this is an F model, ymmv, etc.

Edited November 24, 2021 by danad
Caution

[FlySafe]

thank you! abd have a good thanksgiving

[FlySafe]

19 hours ago, danad said:

I will be back out at the plane Friday, weather permitting, if you have more questions. 

G5

RS232 - input MapMX, output none, baud 38400

ARINC429 - input 1: Garmin gps (SDI 1), input 2: Garmin VOR/ILS (SDI 1) 

 

Avidyne

Main ARINC 429 -

in 3: low, off;

out 3: low, off,

SDI: LNAV 1

 

Main system config - Appr Roll Steer: enabled

 

Main RS232 - 

CHNL 1: off, MapMX

CHNL 2: Off, Aviation

CHNL 3: transponder stuff

rest not set

 

Main ARINC 429 -

in 1: low, EFIS/Airdata

in 2: Low, Off

Out 1: low, GAMA 429 Graphics

out 2: low, off

SDI: LNAV 1

VNAV: Enable Labels

 

proceed with caution, this is an F model, ymmv, etc.

The only difference I see is with the Main ARINC 429 Config.

My aircraft has Out 1 set to GAMA 429 Graphics w/Int and yours is set to GAMA 429 Graphics.

No idea if this is a significant difference but I'll make the change and evaluate, thanks again

k

Evaporation

[danad]

5 hours ago, FlySafe said:

The only difference I see is with the Main ARINC 429 Config.

My aircraft has Out 1 set to GAMA 429 Graphics w/Int and yours is set to GAMA 429 Graphics.

No idea if this is a significant difference but I'll make the change and evaluate, thanks again

k

Evaporation

When I picked it up it matched your setting. During troubleshooting, this was one of the first changes the head technician had me apply.  Not sure if it will fix your problem but here’s hoping. 

[Greg Ellis]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there was an issue with the early C model Mooneys (like my 1963 C model) with the configuration of the push/pull tubes and the GFC 500 autopilot.  I emailed Garmin and asked for an update.

I received a response yesterday that Garmin has revised the STC in November and that should cover the earlier C model Mooneys so hopefully I can move forward with my install.  Looking forward to it.  I post this just in case anyone else was in the same boat I am.

[cliffy]

As has been done in several experimentals  the "roll" servo could be hooked up to the rudder push tube in the back end under the radio shelf and use the interconnect spring for roll input to the ailerons 

There are no servo interference problems there but no manufacturer seems to want  to investigate that idea. Its been mentioned to several. 

[FlySafe]

On 11/24/2021 at 9:19 PM, danad said:

When I picked it up it matched your setting. During troubleshooting, this was one of the first changes the head technician had me apply.  Not sure if it will fix your problem but here’s hoping. 

As an update, changing the IFD Gama 429 setting (graphics+/- int) did not help with the GFC 500 AP LPV lateral deviation on final approach segment but thanks for everyone’s help. I will continue to investigate with installer and Avidyne’s help but currently have exhausted the list of setting changes to try as suggested from Avidyne/this forum and local shop.  Almost seems the GFC500 is purposely degrading  the GPS final approach segment lateral course guidance from the IFD or its not passing the info in the right format or sensitivity for the G5 (my speculation).  The lateral error is not dramatic and still within ACS instrument standards but annoying. Will say Avidyne has been very responsive in trying to help; also, Garmin did respond but said to check with Avidyne, not their problem which is understandable. Now just have to decide if its worth $7K installed price (shop est) to trade in the ifd440 for a gtn650xi.  Not a EE, but from my limited experience with modern digital AP systems, best to have a single vendor for the various pieces of the puzzle so all the parts play well and you don’t fall into that cycle of where one vendor updates software which then interferes with the functionality of another’s vendors critical system component. In which case, you end with vendor finger pointing and no one really able to address the issue other than suggest hope that some theoretical future software update will fix the problem.  If I had not already had an IFD 440 installed and had it to do over, I would have gone with the GTN 650 or 650xi and that is my recommendation to those of you still awaiting on your GFC500 AP install appointment and contemplating your GPS/nav/com choice. Happy Holidays.  

[danad]

2 hours ago, FlySafe said:

Not a EE, but from my limited experience with modern digital AP systems, best to have a single vendor for the various pieces of the puzzle so all the parts play well and you don’t fall into that cycle of where one vendor updates software which then interferes with the functionality of another’s vendors critical system component. I

Well, that is one more thing you can try to isolate the issue. See if the shop will swap in a Garmin 430. If you have the same problem, then you know it isn't the navigator config.

[pirate]

I recently went up with a hangar neighbor in his  Piper Archer, he has the GFC 500 G5’s and IFD 440. Flys the approaches perfectly.

[MarkW]

Thanks in no small measure to the advice and experiences I've read here at MS, I've put down the $$$ to upgrade my '62 M20C with a GFC 500. I'm no purist by a longshot, but kinda like the round-dial look in a vintage airplane, so have selected twin GI-275s.  

I'll be sure to brag, seek advice, and/or whine and complain (as appropriate to whatever stage of the process I'm in) from today through install and testing.

Here goes...

[Greg Ellis]

20 minutes ago, MarkW said:

Thanks in no small measure to the advice and experiences I've read here at MS, I've put down the $$$ to upgrade my '62 M20C with a GFC 500. I'm no purist by a longshot, but kinda like the round-dial look in a vintage airplane, so have selected twin GI-275s.  

I'll be sure to brag, seek advice, and/or whine and complain (as appropriate to whatever stage of the process I'm in) from today through install and testing.

Here goes...

Keep us informed of how it goes.  I put my money down for one for my 1963 C model 4 months ago.  Come to find out Mooney had different variations to the push/pull tubes in the old Mooneys that Garmin had to go back and re-investigate.  I was told recently by Garmin that they have since solved the issue and approved a new fix to the problem but I have not heard back from my installer yet.  They are a big Garmin installer and he is on the phone with Garmin usually daily.  So keep us informed of how things go with you.

[RobertGary1]

So you got a quote. But will you be able to get an install in 2022?

[Don Gates]

Do ya'll think the GFC500 would work with GI-275's versus the G5?