six gear collapses & gear ups in one week

[HRM]

29 minutes ago, tmo said:

Are the gear-ups really mainly low Mooney time pilots?

I wondered this myself, you know the old saying "It isn't a question of whether, but of when."

[Hank]

2 hours ago, tmo said:

Are the gear-ups really mainly low Mooney time pilots?

Maybe they want to firmly establish correct habits, the old "primacy of training" theory.

[Parker_Woodruff]

2 hours ago, tmo said:

Are the gear-ups really mainly low Mooney time pilots?

I don't know if it's exclusively that or not

[irishpilot]

Are the gear-ups really mainly low Mooney time pilots?

It's not. It's across the spectrum. Training and currency are two factors we can control as Mooney pilots. Recurrent training, and flying on a regular basis can help keep habit patterns, checks and checklists fresh.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[philiplane]

11/4/2020- An M20J ran off the runway and had a prop strike, Melbourne FL.

[mike_elliott]

20 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

I don't know if it's exclusively that or not

Gear collapses are maintenance and excessive stress induced. Gear dementia is typically caused by distractions and a break in the routine. Build into your muscle memory and processes as at the 50 go/nogo for landing a simple final check of the gear. Easy to say to do, but obviously hard for a lot to implement. Fly like the airline pros and a lot of these mistakes will be mitigated. Training is huge. Insurance actuaries know this. Meeting a simple 10 hr before pax requirement may well be enough if the instruction is proper, but may fall well short if it is just used to build M&M time for insurance purposes

[Mooneymite]

52 minutes ago, philiplane said:

11/4/2020- An M20J ran off the runway and had a prop strike, Melbourne FL.

Yes, but at least the gear didn't collapse!  

This is an interesting thread, but mostly disheartening.  Sliding down the runway is costing our community a fortune.

Question:  Are these no-gear landings primarily due to pilots forgetting to lower the gear, or is it poor maintenance not keeping our gear systems in rig?

Regardless, both factors need our attention.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Mooneymite

[cliffy]

I'll bring up the idea again of someone needing to use the technology of the current automobile cruise control auto/braking systems and turn the sensors pointing down out of the airplane and instead of applying brakes turn on a loud voice say  HEY DUMB S%^T put your gear down. The green light would disable that function   Absolutely would qualify as NORSEE  and the components are already SAE approved

[Parker_Woodruff]

4 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

.

Question:  Are these no-gear landings primarily due to pilots forgetting to lower the gear, or is it poor maintenance not keeping our gear systems in rig?

 

Both

[alexz]

28 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Both

Wonder if here is any insurance discount for installing gear minding system like P2 (https://www.p2inc.com/audioadvisory.asp) ?

[Parker_Woodruff]

Just now, alexz said:

Wonder if here is any insurance discount for installing gear minding system like P2 (https://www.p2inc.com/audioadvisory.asp) ?

negative

[kortopates]

35 minutes ago, alexz said:

Wonder if here is any insurance discount for installing gear minding system like P2 (https://www.p2inc.com/audioadvisory.asp) ?

I wish they did, but perhaps the real value in something like the P2, that I own, is that it will save me from a gear up incident which in this current insurance climate could well result in making me uninsurable for a number of years.

So even without a discount, that makes the P2 audio advisory system extremely valuable to me seeing first hand as a CFI others suffer the consequences of "insurance hell" after a gear up.

[Mooneymite]

3 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Both

My question was which was primary.  That's like answering the question, "do you prefer candy, or poison?" and answering, "both".  

[Parker_Woodruff]

32 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

My question was which was primary.  That's like answering the question, "do you prefer candy, or poison?" and answering, "both".  

The more frequent is forgetting the gear, but there are a significant amount of gear collapses. Anecdotally it seems like they happen within a year of the plane being purchased. 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

The more frequent is forgetting the gear, but there are a significant amount of gear collapses. Anecdotally it seems like they happen within a year of the plane being purchased. 

Do the gear collapses actually have hidden mechanical damage? Or did the forgetful pilot move the selector to "Down" before climbing out of the scraped-up plane?

[Parker_Woodruff]

20 minutes ago, Hank said:

Do the gear collapses actually have hidden mechanical damage? Or did the forgetful pilot move the selector to "Down" before climbing out of the scraped-up plane?

mostly bad rigging

[PT20J]

4 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

The more frequent is forgetting the gear, but there are a significant amount of gear collapses. Anecdotally it seems like they happen within a year of the plane being purchased. 

That's an interesting observation. I wonder if it is due to new owners taking their airplanes to a mechanic not particularly familiar with Mooneys and messing with stuff that didn't need messing with and doing it incorrectly. I check the gear preload myself every annual and the IA checks it too. We never have to adjust it. The airplane flies straight because no one has messed with the rigging since in left the factory in 1994. To paraphrase Mike Busch, "If it ain't broke, don't mess with it." I like to measure and inspect, but I think twice before changing something that's working.

Skip

[cliffy]

After 55 years as an A&P and 20+ on vintage Mooneys the lack of knowledge (Mooney specific knowledge) is appalling among the currently working A&P work force. Most don't have and/or will never look at the MM. Call 10 repair shops and ask if they ever work on Mooneys and then ask if they have the  proper tools just to check the gear. My bet is 20%

Another observation- there is also an appalling lack of basic trouble shooting skills  (engine and electrical) out in the field.  Again, call 10 shops and ask if they use a Master Orifice compression tester for Continental engines. My guess 50-50.

I had to just last year teach a long running repair shop how to use one and why. And they work on 520s every day. 

[steingar]

One way to avoid forgetting to lower the gear is to get it down 3 miles out.  Every landing I do the gear is down before I ever hit the down wind.  My thinking is most of the distractions are usually in the landing pattern.  If your gear goes down before you get there, distractions won't make you forget to lower it, since it's already down.

Yeah, it makes things a bit slower.  But my Mooney more than makes upper it by being as fast as it is.

[whiskytango]

Does anyone have any information that correlates gear up landings with simultaneous non-functional gear warning horns (actually a beeper in my 231)?  I can understand situations that produce distractions (someone cuts you off in the pattern, ATC tells you to go around, etc.) that could result in a potential gear up landing, but the gear warning horn should give you one last chance to realize the gear isn't down. 

[Mooneymite]

5 hours ago, steingar said:

One way to avoid forgetting to lower the gear is to get it down 3 miles out.  Every landing I do the gear is down before I ever hit the down wind.  My thinking is most of the distractions are usually in the landing pattern.  If your gear goes down before you get there, distractions won't make you forget to lower it, since it's already down.

Yeah, it makes things a bit slower.  But my Mooney more than makes upper it by being as fast as it is.

I do not agree with this technique, but if it works for you, by all means use it.   Heck, if it saves a gear up landing, put down 25 miles before. 

I think keeping your speed up and consistently putting it down at the same point in the pattern is a better habit than Putting it down that far out.  “Always” having the gear down way before you need it seems like it very inefficient and is setting up for the day when you have to hold the gear to “keep your speed up” per tower request.  Mentally you put the gear down way out there. 
 

Generally, if I don’t put the gear down, I’ll be way too fast to land!  

[Hank]

6 hours ago, whiskytango said:

Does anyone have any information that correlates gear up landings with simultaneous non-functional gear warning horns (actually a beeper in my 231)?  I can understand situations that produce distractions (someone cuts you off in the pattern, ATC tells you to go around, etc.) that could result in a potential gear up landing, but the gear warning horn should give you one last chance to realize the gear isn't down. 

My closest call was going into RDU; Approach kept me at 7500 msl and sent me almost 20nm north before turning me inbound, then a little over 10 nm out cleared me to land #8. The descent was interesting, trying to spot 23L from there. Realized crossing the fence that the gear was up, dropped them and landed between the 500'and 1000' instrument stripes.

Yeah, speed was a little fast, descent rate was all over the VSI . . .

Strange handling by Approach had my mind all messed up. But I can't blame them, they weren't in the plane with me. Not sure the throttle got low enough to sound the buzzer.

[jlunseth]

10 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

I do not agree with this technique, but if it works for you, by all means use it.   Heck, if it saves a gear up landing, put down 25 miles before. 

I think keeping your speed up and consistently putting it down at the same point in the pattern is a better habit than Putting it down that far out.  “Always” having the gear down way before you need it seems like it very inefficient and is setting up for the day when you have to hold the gear to “keep your speed up” per tower request.  Mentally you put the gear down way out there. 
 

Generally, if I don’t put the gear down, I’ll be way too fast to land!  

We have had this discussion before. Many times I think. My gear goes down at the six mile mark. Putting the gear down at the same point every time will not save you if that point is in the pattern. That is where things happen that you have to deal with, and in doing so you forget. I could give you a list a mile long. You are not saving time by waiting until you are in the pattern. About three whole minutes. Not worth the risk of going in to a pattern with the gear yet to deploy. I would greatly appreciate it if you would stop messing up my insurance rates, they are bad enough as it is.

[Missile=Awesome]

Distractions are a reality.  Everything is great until it isn’t.  I hope all your techniques work for you.  An audible headset gear alert Check Gear!  Check Gear! Is pretty tough to miss EVEN when distracted...Not if WHEN distracted.  Hope the salt doesn’t flow for ‘ya.

[jlunseth]

21 hours ago, Missile=Awesome said:

Distractions are a reality.  Everything is great until it isn’t.  I hope all your techniques work for you.  An audible headset gear alert Check Gear!  Check Gear! Is pretty tough to miss EVEN when distracted...Not if WHEN distracted.  Hope the salt doesn’t flow for ‘ya.

And yet many miss it.

One of our discussions about this a few months ago had a video of two guys landing gear up with the horn blaring very loudly. Every gear up that happens, happens with some kind of tech warning the pilot. So much for relying on tech.